Weight Loss Forum / WeightWatchers / May 2005
2nd week on Core - weight gain - need to figure out what to do now...
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Doug Lerner - 28 Jan 2005 00:13 GMT Well, I was *hoping* that Core would help me continue on the road to weight loss after not being able to do so on Atkins.
It seems like a real healthy program. As I mentioned in my previous note, where I summed up the different diets I've been on over the years, it seems like sensible, low-glycemic with reality checks built in to prevent abuse.
Week one I lost 1 kg (2.2 lb) which was a small loss for somebody at my weight (119.5 kg to start = 263 lb), but I found the Core eating list easy to abide by and continued for a 2nd week.
This morning, the end of week 2, I weighed in and found my weight had creeped up to 119.0 kg, a weekly gain of 0.5 kg (1.1 lb). This was not a daily fluctuation, because I'd been sneaking peeks all week and saw my weight gradually creep up.
I think I know what the problem is, but unfortunately my thinking leads me to conclude that Core doesn't provide enough weight-loss guidance for me (while I can imagine it working better for others).
The problems, as I see them, are (1) some items on the Core list itself and (2) the lack of specific limits.
In other words, everything that makes Core enticing to begin with. :)
Some examples:
(1) While potatoes, whole grain pasta and brown rice are limited to one serving a day, other starchy and even rather high caloric vegetables and fruits are not.
What does this mean for me? Well, I like broccoli. But I love corn. I like green peppers. But I found I really like red kidney beans.
Since all of these vegetables and legumes are on equal Core footing (unless I am misunderstanding how Core works), and since none of them seem to particularly trigger hunger cravings in me, I've been eating the vegies and legumes I love more and more and the lower calorie vegies like broccoli, spinach, green beans and green pepper less and less. Corn and legumes are just more satisfying to me.
But they are relatively much higher calorie too.
(2) Soba (buckwheat noodles and buckwheat flour) are on the Core list. So if I was hungry in the afternoon I might have "zaru soba" from the convenience store. These are just plain, cold buckwheat noodles. Almost zero fat. But at 370 calories a serving it's higher calorie than, say, having an apple instead. But I find the noodles more of a comfort food. I don't overeat them. And just buy single servings. So I am definitely just eating to "satisfaction" and not stuffing myself. But things like that add up throughout the day.
(3) This is probably the worst offender, calorie wise - meat and poultry. Just looking at the Core list, beef, chicken and fish are on the same footing, as long as you select the lean cuts of meat with no visible fat.
I like fish and chicken, but found myself eating more meat than fish at dinner. I was always scrupulous about selecting cuts with no marbling or extra fat, but even so meat has at least twice the calories of fish, on average.
All these things have added up, obviously, to prevent me from losing weight. And I didn't even mention bananas this time, because I avoided them this week. But given a choice, I would much rather eat a banana than an apple.
So I find myself here Friday morning wondering what to do now...
I see basically two choices (don't mention exercise - that is needed, I know, but I want my eating choices alone to promote weight loss, not hold me back) as far as dieting goes:
1. Try to create my own Core list, eliminating all the foods I like from the current list. That is overstating it, I know. :)
It might be possible to modify the Core list in certain places only. For example, I might decide that WW is ridiculous to include beef in Core and just remove it, forcing me to eat mostly chicken and fish and use flexpoints if I want beef. Maybe a dozen modifications like that would help...
2. Go back to trying to count calories, despite my repeated lack of success in doing this since going off my 700 day low-cal successful diet in 2000.
Both are hard choices. I don't see any advantage in trying to journal and count WW points over just counting calories. Both seem equivalent to me.
How are others doing on Core? Does anybody else experience the same problems I do?
doug
Laura - 28 Jan 2005 00:50 GMT > Well, I was *hoping* that Core would help me continue on the road to > weight loss after not being able to do so on Atkins. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > daily fluctuation, because I'd been sneaking peeks all week and saw my > weight gradually creep up. Sorry to hear about this loss but I am sure you will figure out how to fix this next week.
> I think I know what the problem is, but unfortunately my thinking leads > me to conclude that Core doesn't provide enough weight-loss guidance for > me (while I can imagine it working better for others). I think figuring out Core is a major learning process and I can't imagine trying to figure it out all by yourself. You are fortunate to have this group to ask questions.
> The problems, as I see them, are (1) some items on the Core list itself > and (2) the lack of specific limits. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > flexpoints if I want beef. Maybe a dozen modifications like that would > help... This is certainly one way to limit the higher calorie items that you seem to be enjoying this past week. As long as you don't ADD something to the Core list modifying it to suite your lifestyle is the best thing to do. Everyone needs to identify their trigger foods and to make modifications accordingly. Again, it is a learning process. I've been on Core since the end of August and I am still figuring things out.
> 2. Go back to trying to count calories, despite my repeated lack of > success in doing this since going off my 700 day low-cal successful diet > in 2000. Another idea would be to combine Core and Flex points into one program. Some call this Flore. You eat core foods but weigh, measure and journal just like Flex. You count your points and aim for your daily Target number of points. You still get 35 WPA points like core. The idea here is that while you are doing core you limit your food intake so that you learn what are reasonable portion sizes. It also keeps you aware of the food that you eat from a caloric perspective. Counting points will teach you how to make the most of your points with as much food as possible. It will help limit the higher calorie items that you mention above.
> Both are hard choices. I don't see any advantage in trying to journal > and count WW points over just counting calories. Both seem equivalent to me. They are basically equivalent except that points take into consideration fat and fiber in addition to calories. I'm not sure what your daily number of calories for you weight should be. Once you figure that out aiming for that daily target while still following Core would work too.
I personally find it easier to count to 24 instead of 1200 or 1500 but either method would yield the same result. www.fitday.com offers an online journal that would probably be perfect for what you wish to count.
> How are others doing on Core? Does anybody else experience the same > problems I do? Fred - 28 Jan 2005 02:04 GMT
>Another idea would be to combine Core and Flex points into one program. Some >call this Flore. Oh, afraid to call it "CEX!" (gd&r)
Laura - 28 Jan 2005 03:00 GMT > >Another idea would be to combine Core and Flex points into one program. Some > >call this Flore. > > Oh, afraid to call it "CEX!" (gd&r) ROFLMAO!
Brenda Hammond - 28 Jan 2005 06:00 GMT SmartAss! Just couldn't resist could you? I have to admit it was a good one!
 Signature Brenda 209/195/155
>>Another idea would be to combine Core and Flex points into one program. >>Some >>call this Flore. > > Oh, afraid to call it "CEX!" (gd&r) Fred - 28 Jan 2005 15:07 GMT It was just too easy and resistance is futile, you will be Borg!
>SmartAss! Just couldn't resist could you? I have to admit it was >a good one! Brenda Hammond - 28 Jan 2005 15:37 GMT I'm not a Star Trek fan, but you must be. DH is a science fiction fanatic - not as bad as he used to be mind you. Before we got together he used to go to the yearly Science Fiction Convention. I went once, but didn't enjoy it - for some reason he hasn't gone since then - he has mentioned a few times that he should go again though.
 Signature Brenda 209/195/155
> It was just too easy and resistance is futile, you will be Borg! > >>SmartAss! Just couldn't resist could you? I have to admit it was >>a good one! Helen C Simmons - 28 Jan 2005 16:19 GMT > I'm not a Star Trek fan, but you must be. DH is a science fiction > fanatic - not as bad as he used to be mind you. Before we got > together he used to go to the yearly Science Fiction Convention. I > went once, but didn't enjoy it - for some reason he hasn't gone > since then - he has mentioned a few times that he should go again > though. My favourite Borg 'grin' is
"We are Borg of Dyslexia. Resistors are fertile. Prepare to have your a*s laminated" ;-)
I wish I could claim it as mine, but it's not.
Cheers, helen s
Fred - 28 Jan 2005 21:52 GMT I like it (g)
I shall also pass it on.
>> I'm not a Star Trek fan, but you must be. DH is a science fiction >> fanatic - not as bad as he used to be mind you. Before we got [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Cheers, helen s Fred - 28 Jan 2005 21:52 GMT Some friends here attend a weird series of conventions like that and was it Dr Who or No??? I just like the show.
I have watched since the first one when I was back in college or just after... Wow..........
>I'm not a Star Trek fan, but you must be. DH is a science fiction >fanatic - not as bad as he used to be mind you. Before we got >together he used to go to the yearly Science Fiction Convention. I >went once, but didn't enjoy it - for some reason he hasn't gone >since then - he has mentioned a few times that he should go again >though. Brenda Hammond - 29 Jan 2005 04:29 GMT > Some friends here attend a weird series of conventions like that and > was it Dr Who or No??? I just like the show. This one he used to attend was pretty weird - not my thing at all - people all dressed up like aliens, etc... I remember thinking that they were all very "out there". DH never dressed up, but enjoyed having a few beers with the others and meeting the sci-fi authors that attended.
Dr. Who used to be one of his favorites. When he was a kid his mom made him a Dr. Who scarf :-)
Link to Dr. Who's scarf example
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://longscarf.winnfreenet.com/images/me nue.jpg&imgrefurl=http://longscarf.winnfreenet.com/scarf.html&h=149&w=150&sz=4&t bnid=aTcC9_tZOvQJ:&tbnh=89&tbnw=90&start=6&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddr.%2Bwho%2Bscarf% 26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
> I have watched since the first one when I was back in college or just > after... Wow.......... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>since then - he has mentioned a few times that he should go again >>though. Miss Violette - 06 May 2005 14:38 GMT I did miss this group, Lee, LOL
> >Another idea would be to combine Core and Flex points into one program. Some > >call this Flore. > > Oh, afraid to call it "CEX!" (gd&r) Doug Lerner - 29 Jan 2005 00:49 GMT > "Doug Lerner" <doug@lerner.net> wrote in message
>>This morning, the end of week 2, I weighed in and found my weight had >>creeped up to 119.0 kg, a weekly gain of 0.5 kg (1.1 lb). This was not a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sorry to hear about this loss but I am sure you will figure out how to fix > this next week. Thanks for your note, Laura, and your other suggestions.
I think I'll try adjusting Core first before resorting to just calorie counting or more journaling. I still can't bring myself back to doing that.
I'm going to start with moving beef out of Core and make myself use some of the 35 "flexpoints" you are allowed each week to eat that.
I know it's just a mental trick, but it worked yesterday. I had boneless, skinless breast of chicken for dinner, mixed with fat free salsa and mixed vegies (peas, carrots and corn). Very filling and probably half the total calories of the dinners I have been eating.
Also, in going over what I ate this past week, it is possible I ate an afternoon tofu-based snack that I assumed was Core but really isn't because it's made with oil. That might have added a few hundred calories a day.
So first I'll try those couple of changes and see how it goes.
And this morning, I weighed in at 118.0, which is actually down 0.5 kg (1.1 lb) from last Friday. So things are not hopeless yet. :)
doug
Laura - 29 Jan 2005 02:07 GMT > > "Doug Lerner" <doug@lerner.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > And this morning, I weighed in at 118.0, which is actually down 0.5 kg > (1.1 lb) from last Friday. So things are not hopeless yet. :) Your changes sound like a good plan. I think most of my meals tend to be low fat/high fiber as much as possible. I eat chicken for lunch most days since DH likes beef over chicken. My downfall is meals eaten out. This week was only 1 lunch and 1 dinner. Still the scale is not moving. I am bringing my journal from this and last week for my leader to look at. Something is not right.
Doug Lerner - 30 Jan 2005 00:32 GMT Thanks for your notes of support people. I didn't respond separately to Anna because I misplaced her message and can't seem to find it again. But I also am forcing myself to limit protein sizes. In fact, the changes I'm making seem to be what most people have suggested. So we'll see what happens by next Friday.
What I am definitely *not* doing is going off my diet! :)
doug
Anna H. - 30 Jan 2005 12:38 GMT >Thanks for your notes of support people. I didn't respond separately to >Anna because I misplaced her message and can't seem to find it again. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >doug Congratulations, Doug! I know it's tough, but it'll be so worth it :)
 Signature Anna (in UK) Start Weight: 174 lbs Goal Weight: 146 lbs Current Weight: 165.5 lbs
Fred - 28 Jan 2005 02:09 GMT I can't really comment on the CORE stuff but as Laura notes, counting to 24 or 27 is much easier than dealing with 100's and thousands. And you tend to probably get more calories than that starvation 700 calorie diet you mentioned since the fiber can reduce the "virtual" calories, altho, fat would increase it.
Also, you might have to reevaluate if your comfort level is appropriate or maybe you are still eating too much.
I rarely felt starving on the points plan. And it allowed the occasional "sin" foods. In other words, nothing is really off-limits altho portions might be limited.
Also, a 1/2 pound gain (if I read the kilos right) is not much and could be due to other factors. And one week after a loss week does not forecast a trend yet either.
Good luck.
>Well, I was *hoping* that Core would help me continue on the road to >weight loss after not being able to do so on Atkins. [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > >doug Anna H. - 28 Jan 2005 10:14 GMT Hi Doug,
>The problems, as I see them, are (1) some items on the Core list itself >and (2) the lack of specific limits. I'm not doing WW at the moment, basically because all of their programs to date haven't overcome my specific problem: eating unhealthily.
On Flexpoints I ended up spending half my points on calorie-dense junk, like low fat cakes or whatever (I'm a sugarholic, so being able to eat what I like is a problem).
On the UK equivalent of Core, I'd do exactly what you're doing and eat too much of the wrong things.
So the program I'm doing, which is similar to Core, is different in a couple of key ways, for instance, most meals consist of no more than about 5oz of meat or fish, and there is a lot of variety ie. Every day I eat different meat or fish and different vegetables. If you eat a wide spread of different foods, there is less danger of over-indulging on one.
Most of the recipes involve mixing up lots of veggies, particularly things like tomatoes, courgettes (zucchini) and onions, with lots of casseroles, risottos and sauces.
I'm supposed to be eating about 1400 calories a day and everything less than 5% fat, so although I'm not actually calorie counting at the moment I have to be aware of the higher calorie fruits and veg (such as bananas, legumes, corn, advocado etc) and eat smaller portions. As I'm not eating any one thing in any quantity it's less of an issue however.
In the program I'm doing, you calorie count for a couple of weeks, just to give you some idea where your calories are going and to see if you aren't going over-the-top on something. You might find it useful to track your Core intake for a week and calculate the calories and fat grams *just* for that week*. Then, if you are really over-indulging in kidney beans, you know to cut back your portion sizes. On the program I'm on, the standard "serving" of legumes is equivalent to a 7oz can, just to give you a guideline.
I think any diet program does need to be adapted to the individual. I've decided on a slightly different program because this one does allow for more flexibility - in the first 12 weeks, it's basically a self-help course where you figure out where your problems are and start to tackle them, and actual weight-loss isn't the sole point of it.
I think maybe that's where you need to start - first identify the problems. If you lose weight during the learning process, great, but ultimately it's not a diet program that's going to do it, it's you.
I have to say, and I don't mean to sound mean, but is there something in the back of your mind that likes to bend the rules? You *know* that kidney beans are not calorie-free and that if you eat tons, it's the same as eating a bowl of potatoes. And yet you ate them using the "excuse" that WW say they're Core and therefore you can.
You're obviously an intelligent person. Do you think perhaps this thought-process needs confronting? It's like on my program, I'm allowed oily fish. So what if I had mackerel every meal for a week? Would the calories in mackerel miraculously disappear simply because "The Program" didn't explicitly deny me mackerel three-times daily? Obviously, the intention was for people on the program to have oily fish once a week, as recommended by the health experts, but if I subvert that, I'm only cheating myself and I'll get fatter.
 Signature Anna (in UK) Start Weight: 174 lbs Goal Weight: 146 lbs Current Weight: 165.5 lbs
ray miller - 28 Jan 2005 21:41 GMT >Well, I was *hoping* that Core would help me continue on the road to >weight loss after not being able to do so on Atkins. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >weight (119.5 kg to start = 263 lb), but I found the Core eating list >easy to abide by and continued for a 2nd week. I don't know anything about core or even WW in general. My thing is calorie counting.
I use fitday.com to count everything that passes my lips (well nearly - i cheat too :)) I then follow WW guidelines on what to eat like lots of veges and fruit and low(ish) fat etc. I don't think it matters too much what you eat so long as you don't eat too many calories.
My guess is that you should be eating around 2000 calories to lose weight slowly. You should be able to do this without much difficulty. Eating plenty of protein will help,
If you have come off a low carb diet recently the weight gain is probably just water weight. You can gain back about 10 pounds if you've been eating very few carbs for some time.
My take is that core seems to suit you (after low carb), so stick with it a while longer, but try to limit the starchy stuff a bit. Try squash instead of potato for instance? Use broccoli and cauliflower to bulk out meals. Green beans instead of corn maybe?
If you did gain a pound or two don't worry, If you have been losing weight for a long time a week or two at maintenance will probably be a great way to kick start you metabolism for some more weight loss once you get the calories sorted out.
Good luck
Ray
 Signature 2002 1.8i eternal red
Miss Violette - 06 May 2005 14:35 GMT If I knew when I was satisfied I would never have been overweight, many are successful using core and making out a menu to avoid the pitfalls you have described, Lee, just starting to read
> Well, I was *hoping* that Core would help me continue on the road to > weight loss after not being able to do so on Atkins. [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > > doug Moongrl - 07 May 2005 04:40 GMT Doug Lerner Wrote:
> Well, I was *hoping* that Core would help me continue on the road to > weight loss after not being able to do so on Atkins. [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > doug Doug have you tried the counting points. It is much different than counting calories. It takes into account fiber as well as fat. on calories alone you can eat sugar candy all day and stay under 1200 calories... this is much more healthy, I think, and you have more food choices. Also, I counted calories about 3 years ago and had huge success as well!!! It came so easy and I almost became obsessed with my new hobby, counting calories!!! This year I could not get back into the swing of things. I just didn't work, I kept trying. I started doing ww and counting points and it is working so well! Keep it up!
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