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Lavender, Lord of Darkness - 13 Mar 2009 07:25 GMT

Good afternoon, all,

Been doing various types of dieting for about 5 or 6 years, losing a few
kilos, regaining a few kilos, etc. (I do body-building, too, with the same
gain a few kilos of muscle, then lose a few kilos of muscle... So, it's
impossible to guess how well I'm doing just by looking at my overall weight)

This year, I'm taking a more extreme and consistant approach to dieting
(basically, I aim for 250 calories per day (I think I've only done maybe 7
or 8 days like that) and then I have an upper limit of 1000 calories (my BMR
is 2000) With a 15 - 30 minute workout each day to avoid muscle loss.

Another big help this year (crucial, even) I got a 'bioelectrical
impedence' scale. They're not perfect, but used properly (same level of
hydration, etc.) they can offer a reasonably consistent example of weight
loss, without having to factor in bone-mass, water-weight, etc. (I'm down
from 34kg of fat, to about 25.5kg since start of January (diet started
seriously in February))
Or, in more traditional terms, I'm 6' and down from 104kg (or thereabouts)
to 93.5kg.

Wonderful system, for me, but probably useless for anyone else reading.
(Going to the gym once a day, and doing a serious weight-lifting workout is
absolutely crucial. Also, my energy levels seem unaffected by so little food
(occasional headaches/faintness on 250 cal, absolutely fine on 1000cal)

So, anyway, here I am. Seen some interesting recipe ideas (although I'm not
using the 'points' system myself) and a few fascinating articles. A quick
browse suggest that folks are nice enough (maybe a little bit too 'support
group-ish' for my tastes, but that's to be expected from a support group)
Also, you just can't go past the basic charm of ancient usenet
messageboards, nice little throwback to the proto-internet era when I grew
up.

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Willow Herself - 13 Mar 2009 17:00 GMT

Let me get this straight, you're 6' tall, 104 Kg, and you aim for 250
cal/day (which gives you headache and make you feel faint) and you're
planning on working out 15-30 minutes/day to avoid muscle loss?

You've lost about 19 lbs in 1 month, and hope to keep this rate of loss.

I don't even know where to start. If you manage to keep this up long enough
to get results, you better take a picture, cause they ain't gonna last long.

Will~

> Good afternoon, all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> usenet messageboards, nice little throwback to the proto-internet era when
> I grew up.

Reply to this Message

Lavender, Lord of Darkness - 14 Mar 2009 14:26 GMT

> Let me get this straight, you're 6' tall, 104 Kg, and you aim for 250
> cal/day (which gives you headache and make you feel faint) and you're
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> enough to get results, you better take a picture, cause they ain't gonna
> last long.

I responded to a lot of this in my reply to 'Nathalie W,' so it would be
excessive to repeat myself. But, I just thought I should add...
1. Thanks for the reply.

2. During the first five days of my diet (when I managed to maintain the
250cal thing) I didn't just 'plan' on working out 15 - 30 minutes a day, I
DID work out 15 - 30 minutes a day. (To the amazement of everyone who knew
about my diet)
As to how that was physically possible, I think it's related to a concept
called 'foraging mode' I haven't read very much about this but, apparently,
the idea is that when some people and animals are dealing with limited food,
the body actually increases energy levels in order to give them a better
chance of finding food. (What determines wether a person goes into 'foraging
mode' (more energy) or 'starvation mode' (less energy) I'm not sure.)
The headaches and faintness didn't start until about day 4, and I've been
fine since I started allowing myself 1000cal maximum.

Reply to this Message

Nathalie W - 14 Mar 2009 10:32 GMT

> Good afternoon, all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> messageboards, nice little throwback to the proto-internet era when I grew
> up.

Welcome, Lavender. This is indeed a group many come to for support...
but there are some great recipes shared, and it's always good to have
more people joining and sharing. Careful though, such an extremely low
amount of calories might catch up on you later, yoyo-dieting comes to
mind... You would most definitely still lose while eating more calories.

Signature

Nathalie from Belgium

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Lavender, Lord of Darkness - 14 Mar 2009 14:17 GMT

> Welcome, Lavender. This is indeed a group many come to for support... but
> there are some great recipes shared, and it's always good to have more
> people joining and sharing. Careful though, such an extremely low amount
> of calories might catch up on you later, yoyo-dieting comes to mind... You
> would most definitely still lose while eating more calories.

Thanks for the welcome :-)

I should probably emphasise that, despite my original intention of 250cal
per day, I have in reality been at about 1000cal for every day of my diet
(with a few days slightly over, this past week (mostly due to eating foods
that made calorie-counting difficult. Mother's cooking, etc.)

About yo-yo dieting, I did try something similarly extreme a few years ago
and the results lasted. One January (in 2006, I think) I tried doing the
'Machinist'* diet and lost about 10kg in a month (but that's 10kg total
including, I assume, a lot of water weight and probably some muscle) Going
from about 110kg to a little under 100kg (96kg or 97kg, I think)
I slowly fell off that diet (adding increasingly more dubious 'negative
calorie' foods) and by mid-February I was off it completely, but I did stay
at or just below 100kg for years afterwards (only getting back up to about
106kg, suddenly, last semester (or, I should say, suddenly, last summer;
just because I like obscure movie references)
These are terribly vague and inaccurate figures (one of the reasons I had
trouble staying on the 'Machinist' diet; not taking my workouts very
seriously, I was never certain how much weight-loss was water, fat or
muscle) but I think they suggest I'll probably be able to avoid the 'yo-yo'
dieting effect. (Although, one very significant difference is that on the
'Machinist' diet, I didn't reach my goal-weight, so in the years that
followed I was still basically trying to lose weight, just not as seriously.
By contrast, if I succeed in reaching my goal weight on this current diet,
then it becomes a matter of maintaining that weight (which may be more
difficult, psychologically)
*The 'Machinist' diet I refer to is a very extreme diet that the actor
Christian Bale used to lose weight for a movie called 'The Machinist' (good
film, btw) Consisted of an apple, a cup of coffee and a can of tuna. My diet
started off like that, but quickly added filling, supposedly 'negative
calorie' meals (lots of cucumber salads, that sort of thing. There's a whole
list of foods that supposedly take more calories to digest than are actually
gained from the food. But, I don't know how good the research is)

Anyway, I am considering increasing my 'basic diet' to about 500 calories,
in the hope of spending more days at that level. Possibly with the addition
of a second protein-shake. But, realistically, I'll probably end up around
1000cal for the rest of my diet, which is still a decent weight-loss.

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Dee Flint - 14 Mar 2009 15:30 GMT

> Good afternoon, all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> usenet messageboards, nice little throwback to the proto-internet era when
> I grew up.

This is an unhealthy level of restriction. You may be fine now but longer
term you are probably in for some health issues from it.

Reply to this Message

Lavender, Lord of Darkness - 14 Mar 2009 15:50 GMT

> This is an unhealthy level of restriction. You may be fine now but longer
> term you are probably in for some health issues from it.

How do you mean 'longer term'?

I estimate reaching my goal-weight somewhere between 2 and 4 months from
now. Then it's exactly 1 week without any worrying about diet, followed by a
more healthy diet for the rest of my life (probably 2000cal, if I keep up
the body-building)

Reply to this Message

Dee Flint - 14 Mar 2009 16:53 GMT

>> This is an unhealthy level of restriction. You may be fine now but
>> longer term you are probably in for some health issues from it.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> a more healthy diet for the rest of my life (probably 2000cal, if I keep
> up the body-building)

Gallstones & possible gall bladder surgery
Heart Palpitations
Reduction of muscle. At such low calorie levels the body has no choice but
to burn muscle in addition to fat.

It's much healthier to lose slower.

Check the government food pyramid for recommended calorie levels for losing
and maintaining. A 6 foot male will need significantly more than 2000
calories per day to maintain for example. If you are exercising you will
need even more.

Reply to this Message

Dee Flint - 14 Mar 2009 17:14 GMT

>>> This is an unhealthy level of restriction. You may be fine now but
>>> longer term you are probably in for some health issues from it.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 2000 calories per day to maintain for example. If you are exercising you
> will need even more.

Just a quick check of the (US) government food pyramid shows about 2000
calories for a sedentary male to lose weight and somewhat more to maintain.

Reply to this Message

Lavender, Lord of Darkness - 14 Mar 2009 18:19 GMT

>> Gallstones & possible gall bladder surgery
>> Heart Palpitations
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> calories for a sedentary male to lose weight and somewhat more to
> maintain.

I see. I'll probably do 2500 or whatever it is to maintain, when I get
there.
At this point, I genuinely haven't done much research on what's the proper
calorie intake for a 75 - 80kg 6' male.
I vaguely remember checking one calculator, just out of curiosity, which
said a 77kg, 6' male has a BMR of about 1700 (plus calories for walking,
exercise and all the rest)
I do wonder about the food pyramid thing, if it's only saying 2000 calories
for any 6' male. A 70kg man and a 270kg man will have vastly different
calorie requirements, even if they're the same height.

Point is, the 'maintaining' number of calories I mentioned was chosen almost
at random. There's far too many variables for me to figure out, now, how
many calories I'll need to eat once I'm at my ideal weight. (And that will
change, too, depending on how much I want to continue with bodybuilding, if
I take up any other sports, etc.)

Also, I don't think I mentioned, but I'm only 26. That's part of why I think
it's so crucial for me to lose weight now, while it's reasonably easy for my
body to handle it.
The alternative, realistically, would be for me to continue having little
attempts at dieting for the next 5 or 10 or 20 years (just like the last
five years,) lose a little weight, gain a little, etc. and eventually
realise that a serious diet like this is the only thing that can work for
me. (Of course, realising that when I'm 30 or 40 or 50 would mean my body
would be even less capable of taking the strain)

As you all probably know, good dieting is as much (actually, I think, more)
about the psychology than it is about the physical. I know (from 5 or 6
years trying) that a 'physically' ideal diet (losing weight a kilogram or
two a month) simply will not work for me 'psychologically.'

Reply to this Message

Dee Flint - 14 Mar 2009 18:52 GMT

>>> Gallstones & possible gall bladder surgery
>>> Heart Palpitations
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> calories for any 6' male. A 70kg man and a 270kg man will have vastly
> different calorie requirements, even if they're the same height.

Yes it is different but I was taking a male at roughly your weight. You can
put in your own numbers and come up with values to lose and values to
maintain appropriate to your age, height, and current weight. The website
is www.mypyramid.gov. It is a US site but that should not matter as I
believe it does allow you to input weight in KG.

> Point is, the 'maintaining' number of calories I mentioned was chosen
> almost at random. There's far too many variables for me to figure out,
> now, how many calories I'll need to eat once I'm at my ideal weight. (And
> that will change, too, depending on how much I want to continue with
> bodybuilding, if I take up any other sports, etc.)

The food pyramid site gives you a starting point and allows you to factor in
activity. There are LOTS of other sites on the internet that also help you
out there. First start figuring out your initial calories required to lose
(and you will need to redo as you lose weight). Then when you get to the
weight you wish to be, calculate that with one of the sites. Again they
allow you to enter in activity. Then see how it goes and make adjustments
to stabilize. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOOT IN THE DARK. The info is out there.

> Also, I don't think I mentioned, but I'm only 26. That's part of why I
> think it's so crucial for me to lose weight now, while it's reasonably
> easy for my body to handle it.

Even young people can develop gall bladder issues and heart palpitations if
they diet too severely.

> The alternative, realistically, would be for me to continue having little
> attempts at dieting for the next 5 or 10 or 20 years (just like the last
> five years,) lose a little weight, gain a little, etc. and eventually
> realise that a serious diet like this is the only thing that can work for
> me. (Of course, realising that when I'm 30 or 40 or 50 would mean my body
> would be even less capable of taking the strain)

Good, healthy weight loss is slow weight loss regardless of age at a rate of
1/2 to 2 pounds per week. Faster puts you at risk even if you are young. I
am 58 and have lost 69 pounds since the beginning of March 2009.

> As you all probably know, good dieting is as much (actually, I think,
> more) about the psychology than it is about the physical. I know (from 5
> or 6 years trying) that a 'physically' ideal diet (losing weight a
> kilogram or two a month) simply will not work for me 'psychologically.'

It would be reasonable and healthy to lose a kilogram every week or two.

No matter how you lose the weight, you will need to make permanent changes
to your eating habits anyway to keep it off. So might as well lose the
weight sensibly and quit fretting about the rate.

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Stephanie - 16 Mar 2009 20:07 GMT

>>> Gallstones & possible gall bladder surgery
>>> Heart Palpitations
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> a mistake thinking ble of taking the
> strain)

Many people have lost weight without the eextremities to which you want to
go. I think you are making a mistake to think your only two choices are
extreme and failure.

Have you tried follwing a diet *prograam*? I am currently starting weight
watchers tomorrow. I lost a boat load of wewight a few years ago. But i
stopped eating as well and have gained a teeny bit. I want to nip that in
the bud. I like it because it is prescibed so that all you have to do is DO
it. You plan meals and track your intake etc.. one I liked better was the
Zone Diet and is likely a good choice for a body builder. There is protein
in every meal, and that is necessary to support your muscle development.

Before you do this sextreme starvation thing, take a real sturdy look at why
you were unsuccessful at meeting your fat loss goals with the dieting you
have been doing that, and solve *that* problem. In my opinion, only, of
course.

> As you all probably know, good dieting is as much (actually, I think,
> more) about the psychology than it is about the physical. I know
> (from 5 or 6 years trying) that a 'physically' ideal diet (losing
> weight a kilogram or two a month) simply will not work for me
> 'psychologically.'

I don't think the psychology is set in stone either. In iorder to eat
ridiculously small amounts, you will have to calculate and track. Calculate
and track at healthy levels.

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Stephanie - 16 Mar 2009 20:02 GMT

>> This is an unhealthy level of restriction. You may be fine now but
>> longer term you are probably in for some health issues from it.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> followed by a more healthy diet for the rest of my life (probably
> 2000cal, if I keep up the body-building)

i am curious about your desire to loose so quickly. What is the motivator to
risk a less healthy weight loss?

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