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Whey Protein In Addition to Glutamine and BCAA???

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Prisoner at War - 03 May 2007 15:51 GMT
I'm thinking about trying out supplementation because I don't seem to
be progressing.  The main culprit seems to be (so-called?  I'm still
skeptical) "overtraining," but since I'm not young like I used to be,
perhaps it finally exists for me, too (I'm still wedded to the ol'
Army idea of rigorous cardio 2x daily, etc.).  So I'm looking into
supplements to see if that helps any -- for example, I'm looking into
testosterone boosters to see if that helps restore the "biochemical
context" of my younger self, with respect to work-outs and progress.

Researching the matter, there appears to be a million-and-one
ingredients necessary to optimal performance and growth, LOL.  But a
few seem to consistently stand out.  Like, first of all, protein.
Then creatine and glutamine and BCAAs...but aren't all these "-ines"
proteins??  It seems pure whey protein powders already contain
glutamine and BCAAs.  So why are those two latter ingredients also
sold separately???
bcince@gmail.com - 03 May 2007 16:25 GMT
> I'm thinking about trying out supplementation because I don't seem to
> be progressing.  The main culprit seems to be (so-called?  I'm still
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> glutamine and BCAAs.  So why are those two latter ingredients also
> sold separately???

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Steve Freides - 03 May 2007 17:00 GMT
> I'm thinking about trying out supplementation because I don't seem to
> be progressing.

Please define what "progressing" would be for you.

> The main culprit seems to be (so-called?  I'm still
> skeptical) "overtraining," but since I'm not young like I used to be,
> perhaps it finally exists for me, too (I'm still wedded to the ol'
> Army idea of rigorous cardio 2x daily, etc.).

Lots of cardio and getting bigger and/or stronger (what I assume you
mean by "progressing") don't work well together for most people most of
the time.  Before changing your diet, try cutting back on the cardio.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

> So I'm looking into
> supplements to see if that helps any -- for example, I'm looking into
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> glutamine and BCAAs.  So why are those two latter ingredients also
> sold separately???
Prisoner at War - 03 May 2007 17:45 GMT
> Please define what "progressing" would be for you.

Well, I mean, not stuck at some particular weight -- like 275-lbs. on
the bench press.  I had done 315 at one time, for like two reps
unassisted, and another one or two with some assist, and now 275 is my
max.

I know numbers aren't everything, but they're an indicator, it seems.
So I'm thinking it's probably old age setting in, loss of testosterone
levels, whatever, and I'm now wondering if some supplementation is
finally in order.

> Lots of cardio and getting bigger and/or stronger (what I assume you
> mean by "progressing") don't work well together for most people most of
> the time.  Before changing your diet, try cutting back on the cardio.
>
> Just my opinion.

Thanks, much appreciated; that seems to be the consensus all right,
though I remember many an Army Ranger who's big and cut and yet who,
like all Rangers, have to run run run five days a week, often twice
daily.  I just like an all-around level of health, which includes
being able to run (and I don't mean simply putting one foot in front
of the other for like ten minutes).  I'm still resistant to the
apparent notion that hypertrophy and strength is in some opposition to
rigorous and fairly frequent aerobic activity.

So, anyway, any idea why they sell BCAA and glutamine, etc.,
separately if these things are already in whey protein powders??

> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > glutamine and BCAAs.  So why are those two latter ingredients also
> > sold separately???
Steve Freides - 03 May 2007 18:06 GMT
>> Please define what "progressing" would be for you.
>
> Well, I mean, not stuck at some particular weight -- like 275-lbs. on
> the bench press.  I had done 315 at one time, for like two reps
> unassisted, and another one or two with some assist, and now 275 is my
> max.

Still a respectable number and in the ballpark of your all-time max.

> I know numbers aren't everything, but they're an indicator, it seems.
> So I'm thinking it's probably old age setting in, loss of testosterone
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> apparent notion that hypertrophy and strength is in some opposition to
> rigorous and fairly frequent aerobic activity.

We're all the same in some ways and different in others - you have to
find what works well for you.

I'm 52, and I'm _much_ happier doing strength/endurance training than I
am with traditional cardio.  If you're skinny like me, you can actually
put on muscle while improving your cardiovascular health at the same
time.  I'm in the middle of a several month stretch of high volume,
heavy kettlebell snatch training, and my weight has gone up a pound or
two while my bodyfat has gone down, and my endurance has simply gone
through the roof, .e.g, I can get in the pool and swim a length of front
crawl without a breath, something that used to be difficult if not
impossible for me.  Yesterday I  did 120 swing-style kettlebell snatches
(60 per arm) in the form of short sets of 3-5 reps each (3-5 reps w/ one
arm, switch arms, 3-5 reps the other arm, then put the bell down)
followed by short rests, totalling 16 minutes worth in a format that
works out to be about 25 second of lifting followed by 35 seconds of
rest, give or take.  The kettlebell weighs 32 kg (70 lbs.) and I weigh
about 70 kg (154 lbs.)

So, there's aerobic activity and there's aerobic activity, and the
traditional kind works less well, and weights work better, the older you
get - that's my take on it, and I think this is often overlooked.  As we
get older, we lose muscle and you have to fight that.  You can rest
assured that I can, on no running training, still go out and complete
the local 5k footrace at, if not my old racing times, then certainly at
my old training pace.

> So, anyway, any idea why they sell BCAA and glutamine, etc.,
> separately if these things are already in whey protein powders??

I'm sure someone can give a scientific answer, but the short, real-world
answer is that they sell whatever people are willing to buy.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
Prisoner at War - 03 May 2007 19:22 GMT
> Still a respectable number and in the ballpark of your all-time max.

Thanks, but there's nothing like seeing a minimum of three plates on
each end of the bar.  Any less and it looks like "cheating" or
slacking off!  And it's not just this, but chin-ups, curls, everything
else...I'm just not lifting as much for as many reps and sets as I
used to be, and it's shocking because there are much older lifters who
are still very capable.  I seem to have burned brightly but
quickly...???

You see, I also wonder about all the "old guys" I see in the
gym...walking on treadmills, for example: why not go for a walk
outside??  Never understood that.  Whereas pumping iron, sure, that
makes sense -- except now that I seem to be seeing diminishing
returns, so I'm wondering if I shouldn't just do push-ups and chin-ups
at home, simply.

> We're all the same in some ways and different in others - you have to
> find what works well for you.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> rest, give or take.  The kettlebell weighs 32 kg (70 lbs.) and I weigh
> about 70 kg (154 lbs.)

Yeah, I noticed that you're real big on kettlebells!  They look all
right; wish my gym had 'em, for variety's sake, though I can't see
that big of a difference between their employ and that of plain ol'
dumb- and barbells.  I'm not particularly familiar with kettlebell
routines, but swinging 70-lbs. around as much as you do at your age
sounds very healthy!  =)  I hope to be horseback riding or something
like that when I get that point, probably only going to the gym
occasionally for a bit of variety.

> So, there's aerobic activity and there's aerobic activity, and the
> traditional kind works less well, and weights work better, the older you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the local 5k footrace at, if not my old racing times, then certainly at
> my old training pace.

Well, how would you feel the day after?  And yeah, at a certain pace,
I could jog all day, too...but there's nothing like that sense of near-
effortless effort which comes from being in your prime...I dunno, I
guess I'm just mourning my perceived loss of youthful vigor here...I
don't think of myself as "old" but God damn it I sure ain't
"happening" like I used to be...!

> I'm sure someone can give a scientific answer, but the short, real-world
> answer is that they sell whatever people are willing to buy.

LOL -- good point, of course.

I wonder if anyone's done a real documentary on bodybuilding, where
they follow a muscleman around, drugs and injections and all.  That
would really be interesting...too bad ol' Craig Titus is in prison
now!  Seems like he would have been the ideal star of such a flick,
given his apparent anti-Weider Bros. stance.

> Just my opinion.
>
> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
Steve Freides - 03 May 2007 21:31 GMT
>> Still a respectable number and in the ballpark of your all-time max.
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> like that when I get that point, probably only going to the gym
> occasionally for a bit of variety.

The DragonDoor forum is where many of the kettlebell folks, me included,
hang out.  If you want more of an explanation of why we prefer what we do to
the alternatives, that's the place to ask.  I bought my kettlebells one at a
time - a 35 lb. and a 53 lb. will keep most folks happy for quite some time,
and the DragonDoor materials are second to none when it comes to basic
health and fitness.  I'm one of their "kettlebell success stories" - you can
read about it on their site, and there's a link from mine as well.

I do 95% of my working out at home - much simpler that way.

>> So, there's aerobic activity and there's aerobic activity, and the
>> traditional kind works less well, and weights work better, the older you
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> don't think of myself as "old" but God damn it I sure ain't
> "happening" like I used to be...!

I do the local 5k every year - for the last decade or so, it's been keeping
one or the other of my kids company.  Haven't had to push the pace just yet.
My youngest is 10 and it's still pretty easy for me to keep up with him.

I feel fine the day after, a bit sore as you'd expect from 20+ minutes of an
unfamiliar activity.  I went for a brief walk/run with my wife today to try
to get a little more ready, about 2 miles, ran about half of it.

Anyway, best of luck to you.  Anything else I can tell you, just holler.  We
all get older - you do the best you can, and I'm pretty happy with how it's
going for me.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>> I'm sure someone can give a scientific answer, but the short, real-world
>> answer is that they sell whatever people are willing to buy.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
>> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
Mu - 04 May 2007 21:31 GMT
> You see, I also wonder about all the "old guys" I see in the
> gym...walking on treadmills, for example: why not go for a walk
> outside??  Never understood that.

It doesn't get cold, overly hot, rain or snow in the gym. There is no
better alternative to cardio than the consistency of use capability of a
treadmill.
Signature

http://www.steppenwolf.com/lyr/mnnster.html

Prisoner at War - 11 May 2007 21:54 GMT
> It doesn't get cold, overly hot, rain or snow in the gym. There is no
> better alternative to cardio than the consistency of use capability of a
> treadmill.

How can you say that?  Nothing like the real deal -- jogging totally
under your own propulsion!

I can't believe the elements can make the monotony of the hamster
wheel seem so attractive by comparison.  I can do treadmills and
tracks, but nothing like a real run from A to B...on through Z!

I really miss the Army sometimes...nothing like a platoon running
through the post!

> --http://www.steppenwolf.com/lyr/mnnster.html

Eh?
MattLB - 04 May 2007 13:39 GMT
> So, anyway, any idea why they sell BCAA and glutamine, etc.,
> separately if these things are already in whey protein powders??

BCAA are unusual in that after they're absorbed from the gut into the
blood they are taken up by the muscles not the liver.  If you eat BCAA
on their own then you're directly feeding the muscles. Glutamine is
the most abundant amino acid in muscle tissue, so again, eating
glutamine is giving muscles what they're made of.

Eating proteins provides these amino acids, but only as a component of
the total. For hardcore bodybuilders where their stomach capacity is
the limiting factor, eating muscle-centric amino acids as supplements
can be seen as a more efficient way to sustain anabolic growth.

Creatine is a non-protein amino acid, that, once again, is enriched in
muscle and acts as a rapid energy source for exercising muscles. Meat
contains it, but plants or dairy don't, so a supplement is just
easier.

MattLB
Will Brink - 04 May 2007 19:07 GMT
> I know numbers aren't everything, but they're an indicator, it seems.
> So I'm thinking it's probably old age setting in, loss of testosterone
> levels, whatever, and I'm now wondering if some supplementation is
> finally in order.

If your diet, training, and hormones are in order, sure, no reason not to.
If the former are not in order, than you know what you need to work on.
See:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=95

>  I'm still resistant to the
> apparent notion that hypertrophy and strength is in some opposition to
> rigorous and fairly frequent aerobic activity.

Yet your own experience seems to confirm it: strength has gone down and
progress has not been made. Do the math.

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

Bob - 04 May 2007 05:09 GMT
>Researching the matter, there appears to be a million-and-one
>ingredients necessary to optimal performance and growth, LOL.  But a
>few seem to consistently stand out.  Like, first of all, protein.
>Then creatine and glutamine and BCAAs...but aren't all these "-ines"
>proteins??  

no

Proteins are made of a standard set of 20 amino acid subunits.

Creatine is a modified amino acid, not found in any substantial amount
in proteins.

Glutamine is in proteins, at some level. If indeed your were short of
glutamine and needed more than what is found in your food, taking
extra glutamine might make sense. I don't know why you would have such
a deficiency.

What is BCAA?

bob
joanne - 04 May 2007 16:16 GMT
>  What is BCAA?

Branched Chain Amino Acids :
http://tinyurl.com/2ud7x8

joanne
Will Brink - 04 May 2007 19:02 GMT
>  So why are those two latter ingredients also
> sold separately???

'Cause they can. Next.

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

Mu - 04 May 2007 21:33 GMT
>>  So why are those two latter ingredients also
>> sold separately???
>
> 'Cause they can. Next.

And now for a better answer. Because they can be moderated to intake
when separated.
Signature

http://www.steppenwolf.com/lyr/mnnster.html

Prisoner at War - 06 May 2007 14:37 GMT
Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback.  I'll try some supplementation -- whey
protein and creatine to start -- and see how things work out.  I
certainly hope they do: these things can be expensive!  I'm still
skeptical, but at this point, I guess I don't have anything to lose.
I'll also cut back on training, especially cardio, to see if that
helps.  Everything seems to be age-related...I'm still capable of
putting in the time and effort, thank Goodness, but I'm just not
getting the same returns, and that's extremely puzzling.  So maybe at
35 I'm finally aging!  It's really hard to believe...part of what made
working out so fun, and why I could do it for hours on end, was the
sheer sense of feeling my own growing power.  Now that it seems like
the opposite, I'm afraid I'm just going to quit in disgust!  Who wants
to be reminded of diminished capabilities with each and every lift,
each and every mile???  I'll go troll some golfing or fishing
newsgroup instead!  ^_^
JMW - 06 May 2007 17:02 GMT
> So maybe at
> 35 I'm finally aging!  It's really hard to believe...part of what made
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> each and every mile???  I'll go troll some golfing or fishing
> newsgroup instead!  ^_^

Maybe you should try seppuku.
Prisoner at War - 11 May 2007 21:50 GMT
Maybe you should try lifting some real weights!  Was that you in the
video on your website?  Some fat bald guy with a tub and a handlebar
mustache trying to bench 185-lbs.???

Seriously, people like you make me fear old age!

> Maybe you should try seppuku.
JMW - 11 May 2007 23:43 GMT
>Maybe you should try lifting some real weights!  Was that you in the
>video on your website?  Some fat bald guy with a tub and a handlebar
>mustache trying to bench 185-lbs.???

Oh, you've never seen 100-pound plates before?  I guess that's because
you've never competed ... just Usenet lifts, right?

Does it bother you that I weigh less and lift more than you do, and
I'm still about 20 years older?

Yes ...

>> Maybe you should try seppuku.
Prisoner at War - 12 May 2007 00:36 GMT
> Oh, you've never seen 100-pound plates before?  I guess that's because
> you've never competed ... just Usenet lifts, right?

LOL!!!  Yeah, sure, and how much did the bar weigh when inflated?  =D

> Does it bother you that I weigh less and lift more than you do, and
> I'm still about 20 years older?

You mean those usenet lifts you were just talking about??  ^_^

> Yes ...

sh.t, JMW, you sound like a comicbook muscleman, right down to the
bald head and handlebar mustache -- I'm surprised you weren't wearing
leopard-skin!
GraceJG@gmail.com - 14 May 2007 06:10 GMT
> I'm thinking about trying out supplementation because I don't seem to
> be progressing.  The main culprit seems to be (so-called?  I'm still
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> glutamine and BCAAs.  So why are those two latter ingredients also
> sold separately???

Hi, I am not a "know it all" but I would like to take a shot at
answering your question, if I may.

but aren't all these "-ines"
> proteins??  It seems pure whey protein powders already contain
> glutamine and BCAAs.  So why are those two latter ingredients also
> sold separately???

because every "body" has different needs. try using protein and extra
BCAA for about 6 weeks, than try protein and extra glutamine for 6
weeks and see which prduced the best results for you, if you are not
happy with either try a combo of all for 6 weeks. I would say find a
nutritionalist, better yet, a dr. natural medicine have him/her test
your nutritional levels (which vitamins enzymes minerals) your body is
lacking and which you may have too much of, then let her/him decide
what will enhance your body performance.
I hope I am making sense, I am just trying to help. Personally I am a
fan of juicing, and I do a lot of research. I know my body needs extra
B3 (niacin which I take just before going to sleep) B5 (pantothenic
acid) B6 and B12 aside from taking a B-Complex. B Vitamins are
responsible for metabolism of proteins fat and calories, it would
really be beneficial if you knew what vitamins minerals and enzymes
do, this way you can really boost your results. My favorite book is
Prescription for Natural Healing. I read it and go back to it all the
time. It gives you side effects, interactions, suggested dosage and
defeciency symptoms. I got it on ebay, it's the cheapest. Take care
and good luck. Kat
 
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