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Fake Protein Supplements?

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Prisoner at War - 16 May 2007 03:01 GMT
Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
bodybuilder -- Labrada, Dave Draper's Bomber Blend, Dorian Yates
Approved -- since these guys, presumably, wouldn't want to get a bad
reputation for shoddy products.  (How about Gaspari Nutrition, then?
Or Bentacourt....)

But while folks on bodybuilding fora and sites believe that there are
companies which sell rip-off protein powders, I've never heard a name
mentioned at all.  So, which companies sell b.s. protein powders?
Which brand's protein mix is not really protein, or not the advertised
protein, etc.?

How's Supplement Direct?  Odd I find very little said about them,
considering that they sell the absolute cheapest protein powder
anywhere!  From what little research I was able to conduct, they seem
to be supplied -- despite their claims of manufacturing their own
stuff -- by a company called Proteint in MN, which supposedly has the
largest whey isolate facility in the whole world!

And, also, has Schwarzenegger ever done supplement endorsements
himself?  I'm surprised he and best buddy Franco Columbu never went
into this business (I understand they were partners in some
construction company they had, which apparently afforded them all
those hours at the gym and all those steroids!)....
Dave - 16 May 2007 03:51 GMT
> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
> bodybuilder -- Labrada, Dave Draper's Bomber Blend, Dorian Yates
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Which brand's protein mix is not really protein, or not the advertised
> protein, etc.?

It's not much, and I don't have a source, but years ago I read an article
that criticized whey protein manufacturers. The gist was that they say how
whey protein isolate was shown effective with such-and-such results, but
then they turn around and sell a different product, whey protein
concentrate, because it's cheaper to make. But I searched on google products
(used to be Froogle), and the isolate variety only seems to be a little more
expensive on average than the concentrate.

Did they wise up? Are health food stores carrying whey protein isolate now
too?

David

Signature

Adamant Barbell
Unyielding steel, built for abuse
www.adamantbarbell.com

Will Brink - 16 May 2007 14:43 GMT
> It's not much, and I don't have a source, but years ago I read an article
> that criticized whey protein manufacturers. The gist was that they say how
> whey protein isolate was shown effective with such-and-such results, but
> then they turn around and sell a different product, whey protein
> concentrate, because it's cheaper to make.

Either the article is wrong or you are quoting it wrong. Most of the
studies that looked at the benefits of whey used concentrates. The entire
whey industry that was used to sell whey, was based on concentrate
studies. More recent studies have used isolates. Everything you could need
to know about whey:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=25

>But I searched on google products
> (used to be Froogle), and the isolate variety only seems to be a little more
> expensive on average than the concentrate.
>
> Did they wise up? Are health food stores carrying whey protein isolate now
> too?

Of course, thought very few sell pure isolates as they are expensive. A
mix of isolate and concentrates is the norm. Plenty of scams and BS in the
supplement industry, including the sellers of whey, but it has nothing to
do with the manufacturers of whey and everything to do with the companies
that sell it (hint, they are not one and the same thing).

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

Prisoner at War - 16 May 2007 16:51 GMT
> It's not much, and I don't have a source, but years ago I read an article
> that criticized whey protein manufacturers. The gist was that they say how
> whey protein isolate was shown effective with such-and-such results, but
> then they turn around and sell a different product, whey protein
> concentrate, because it's cheaper to make.

Sounds a bit like what's happening with creatine: all the studies are
done on creatine monohydrate, but companies come out with their own
"improvements" on creatine while citing the results of studies done
using creatine monohydrate.

> But I searched on google products
> (used to be Froogle), and the isolate variety only seems to be a little more
> expensive on average than the concentrate.

A lot more, actually: those couple of dollars difference add up when
you buy in bulk!

> Did they wise up? Are health food stores carrying whey protein isolate now
> too?

That's the other thing: I'm wary of health food stores.  I mean, all
these things that healthy people have done without...it just sounds so
silly on the face of it!

Anyway, since I'm getting on in years here and ain't responding like I
used to be, I'm changing a lot of things, including my diet.  I will
try protein powder for, I dunno, two months and see if anything seems
to happen.  I just thought it odd that there's talk of rip-off b.s.
powders out there, but no one ever actually names any names!  Just as
strange is how Supplement Direct sells the absolute lowest priced
protein by far, but there's hardly any talk of them, either!

> David
>
> --
> Adamant Barbell
> Unyielding steel, built for abusewww.adamantbarbell.com
cleanskin@itspuresoap.com - 16 May 2007 19:59 GMT
All protein powders are crap. Stick with real food. Protein powders
will actually pull fat soluble vitamins right out of you. AND all of
them have some sort of synthetic sugar. Eat liver! One of nature's
wonder foods.  Vince Gironda knew a lot of stuff way before anybody
else! Also, check out the folks at http://www.westonaprice.org -
really spot on for maximizing your health!

Tom
http://www.itspuresoap.com

On May 16, 11:51 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > It's not much, and I don't have a source, but years ago I read an article
> > that criticized whey protein manufacturers. The gist was that they say how
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> > Adamant Barbell
> > Unyielding steel, built for abusewww.adamantbarbell.com
Will Brink - 16 May 2007 21:26 GMT
> All protein powders are crap.

Then why does the research find so many benefits from whey compared to
other proteins? Effects on immunity, cancer, GSH, and others. For example:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=26

>Stick with real food. Protein powders
> will actually pull fat soluble vitamins right out of you.

Cite.

> AND all of
> them have some sort of synthetic sugar.

Your'e an idiot.

> Eat liver! One of nature's
> wonder foods.  Vince Gironda knew a lot of stuff way before anybody
> else!

Not really, but he sure thought he did.

>Also, check out the folks at http://www.westonaprice.org -
> really spot on for maximizing your health!

Actualy they are a bunch of nuts, but that's another issue.

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

cleanskin@itspuresoap.com - 17 May 2007 05:10 GMT
Let me try to go through this point by point with what I know or what
I think I know...

I generally define the best way of eating as to eat the foods with the
lowest profit margins and that spoil soon. These foods have more
nutrients per ounce. Whey protein is cheap as hell and the source of
it is from cows that aren't grass fed. Not grass fed means lower CLA
in the food source. I just saw a post on one of the groups today
citing this very fact. It was a study done in Europe. I didn't read it
thoroughly but got the gist of it. Also, whey protein or any low fat
protein source will rob Vitamin A (real Vitamin A not beta-carotene)
from the body as it processes the protein. I don't have a citation for
this, but can look it up.  Here is an article on vit A and absorption
of protein: http://www.westonaprice.org/men/vitaminabodybuilding.html

The article which you wrote doesn't have any citations. Please provide
these and we can discuss further. Whey can be made at home far cheaper
than buying a powder. Don't know how? Get raw milk and make yogurt,
then drain the liquid. This would have to be the best whey ever!
Second best, use regular milk. Third best, buy yogurt.

Please name for me a whey protein that uses only brown sugar or even
regular sugar for sweetening and I'll happily endorse it.

Vince definitely was a character. He knew a lot. Not all. And I agree
that he sure thought he knew it all.

Not sure why you think the westonaprice folks are nuts. Please give me
an example as opposed to a general attack on them.

Tom
http://www.itspuresoap.com

> In article <1179341952.182954.307...@q23g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> "It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural
Bully - 17 May 2007 06:37 GMT
> Let me try to go through this point by point with what I know or what
> I think I know...

Nail - head - hit!

[...]

> Please name for me a whey protein that uses only brown sugar or even
> regular sugar for sweetening and I'll happily endorse it.

What about wholemeal sugar? Isn't that even better than brown sugar?

> Vince definitely was a character. He knew a lot.

You know this how?

[...]

Signature

Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Will Brink - 17 May 2007 14:57 GMT
> Let me try to go through this point by point with what I know or what
> I think I know...
>
> I generally define the best way of eating as to eat the foods with the
> lowest profit margins and that spoil soon. These foods have more
> nutrients per ounce.

Proft margin has zero to do with nutrient density nor does how fast the
food spoils.

>Whey protein is cheap as hell and the source of
> it is from cows that aren't grass fed.

Some are some are not.

>Not grass fed means lower CLA
> in the food source.

Irrelevant and of no consequence to the topic at hand. You are rambling
this off in some attempt to make yourself appear educated on the topic
when you clearly are not.

> I just saw a post on one of the groups today
> citing this very fact.

You read it on another news group. Really showed me you did...

>It was a study done in Europe. I didn't read it
> thoroughly but got the gist of it. Also, whey protein or any low fat
> protein source will rob Vitamin A (real Vitamin A not beta-carotene)
> from the body as it processes the protein. I don't have a citation for
> this, but can look it up.

Then do so, as it's total BS.

> Here is an article on vit A and absorption
> of protein: http://www.westonaprice.org/men/vitaminabodybuilding.html

A worthless source as weston price is worthless info for non science types
who are fooled by their BS and agendas. The article is also worthless.

> The article which you wrote doesn't have any citations. Please provide
> these and we can discuss further.

Formatting of the article is messed up for some reason. On another site:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag97/nov-report97.html

Others can be seen here:

Effects of one of the sub fractions found in whey not found in other proteins:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=99

Possible effects of whey on weight loss:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=11

Pretty much everything you need to know about whey:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=25

Those are just a sample BTW.

>Whey can be made at home far cheaper
> than buying a powder. Don't know how? Get raw milk and make yogurt,
> then drain the liquid. This would have to be the best whey ever!
> Second best, use regular milk. Third best, buy yogurt.

You're ignorant of the topic.

> Please name for me a whey protein that uses only brown sugar or even
> regular sugar for sweetening and I'll happily endorse it.

I dont care what you endorse. There are many non flavored whey products on
the market BTW. Your ignorance of whey is not my problem.

> Vince definitely was a character. He knew a lot. Not all. And I agree
> that he sure thought he knew it all.

I have no idea what you are talking about or who Vince is.

> Not sure why you think the westonaprice folks are nuts. Please give me
> an example as opposed to a general attack on them.

Their info is generally BS and that's easy enough to figure out by a
simple read of their material.

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

cleanskin@itspuresoap.com - 17 May 2007 20:43 GMT
> In article <1179375052.854117.247...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Proft margin has zero to do with nutrient density nor does how fast the
> food spoils.

Wow. So fresh foods are no different from canned, pulverized or frozen
foods? Or anything else done to it.

> >Whey protein is cheap as hell and the source of
> > it is from cows that aren't grass fed.
>
> Some are some are not.

Which whey maker uses grass fed, pasture raised cows? I'd love to know
this.

> > Here is an article on vit A and absorption
> > of protein:http://www.westonaprice.org/men/vitaminabodybuilding.html
>
> A worthless source as weston price is worthless info for non science types
> who are fooled by their BS and agendas. The article is also worthless.

So these are worthless citations?
Livera, et al., "Regulation and Perturbation of Testicular Functions
by Vitamin A" (Review), Reproduction (2002) 124, 173-180
Nayyar, et. al., "Alterations in binding characteristics of peripheral
benzodiazepine receptors in testes by vitamin A deficiency in guinea
pigs," Mol Cell Biochem. 2000 Aug;211(1-2):47-50
Bishop, et. al., "The effect of nutritional factors on sex hormone
levels in male twins," Genet Epidemiol. 1988;5(1):43-59.
Zadik, et. al., "Vitamin A and iron supplementation is as efficient as
hormonal therapy in constitutionally delayed children," Clin
Endocrinol (Oxf). 2004 Jun; 60(6):682-7.
McCormick, et. al., "Chemoprevention of rat prostate carcinogenesis by
9-cis-retinoic acid," Cancer Res. 1999 Feb 1;59(3):521-4.
Furusho, et. al., "Tissue specific-distribution and metabolism of
vitamin A are affected by dietary protein levels in rats," Int J Vitam
Nutr Res. 1998;68(5):287-92
Narbonne, et. al., "Protein metabolism in vitamin A deficient rats.
II. Protein synthesis in striated muscle," Ann Nutr Aliment.
1978;32(1):59-75.
Stio, et. al., "Synergistic effect of vitamin D derivatives and
retinoids on C2C12 skeletal muscle cells," IUBMB Life. 2002 Mar;53(3):
175-81

> > The article which you wrote doesn't have any citations. Please provide
> > these and we can discuss further.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Those are just a sample BTW.

I agree that whey is fantastic and it is WHEY better in its original
form before it is pulverized and/or cooked.

> >Whey can be made at home far cheaper
> > than buying a powder. Don't know how? Get raw milk and make yogurt,
> > then drain the liquid. This would have to be the best whey ever!
> > Second best, use regular milk. Third best, buy yogurt.
>
> You're ignorant of the topic.

I am ignorant on the topic of whey? Have you ever made your own whey?
If a cow is pasture fed, on pesticide free grass, and you milk it,
culture it to become yogurt,
drain the liquid whey out.... are you telling me that WPI or
hydrolyzed protein is healthier than this?
What about all of the other nutrients in this liquid that haven't even
been discovered yet? And that perhaps
make the whey work even better? Or whey maybe works better directly in
the yogurt? Or even better, perhaps it works
better in the raw milk?!  Healthy whole foods are always better than
an isolated form stripped from their origin.

> > Vince definitely was a character. He knew a lot. Not all. And I agree
> > that he sure thought he knew it all.
>
> I have no idea what you are talking about or who Vince is.

You don't know who Vince Gironda was? Have you studied the history of
bodybuilding and nutrition?
Your ignorance of Vince Gironda is revealing.

> > Not sure why you think the westonaprice folks are nuts. Please give me
> > an example as opposed to a general attack on them.
>
> Their info is generally BS and that's easy enough to figure out by a
> simple read of their material.

Still waiting for an example.
Have you read "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Dr. Price?
This book is so insightful that it would be an understatement to say
anything else.
This is the basis of the http://www.westonaprice.org folks.

Tom
http://www.itspuresoap.com
cleanskin@itspuresoap.com - 17 May 2007 21:44 GMT
Here is the study I couldn't find regarding CLA and eating more
organic foods for anyone interested

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=17349086&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum


Tom
http://www.itspuresoap.com

On May 17, 3:43 pm, cleans...@itspuresoap.com wrote:

> > In article <1179375052.854117.247...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 116 lines]
>
> Tomhttp://www.itspuresoap.com
Will Brink - 17 May 2007 22:46 GMT
> Here is the study I couldn't find regarding CLA and eating more
> organic foods for anyone interested


Did anyone claim organic foods were bad in this thread or do you always
just throw out random stuff unrlated to the topic of the thread?

> > > > Here is an article on vit A and absorption

No, it is not. Your reading skills are worse than your science. Show me in
the article where it talks about ABSORPTION of vitamin A.

> > So these are worthless citations?

From the article:

"athletes and body builders may be able to achieve similar results from
their training by taking high-vitamin cod liver oil and eating foods rich
in vitamin A on a regular basis as others receive from the common practice
of supplementing with testosterone precursors."

That's very funny! Vitamin A is = to anabolic steroids.

> > Still waiting for an example.

I just gave you one. If they allow that type of BS to be published on
their site...they are well known for fabricating things and or simply
getting the science wrong to support their agenda's

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

Will Brink - 17 May 2007 22:22 GMT
> > In article <1179375052.854117.247...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Wow.

For you, I guess this basic info leads to a "wow" conclusion.

>So fresh foods are no different from canned, pulverized or frozen
> foods? Or anything else done to it.

For nutrient density, no. Do you even understand what nutrient density is?
It appears you don't.

> > >Whey protein is cheap as hell and the source of
> > > it is from cows that aren't grass fed.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Which whey maker uses grass fed, pasture raised cows? I'd love to know
> this.

As you don't understand even basic concepts like nutrient density, I fail
to see how the info will do you any good.

> > > Here is an article on vit A and absorption
> > > of protein:http://www.westonaprice.org/men/vitaminabodybuilding.html
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> So these are worthless citations?

In the context of this thread and conversation,Yup.

> I agree that whey is fantastic and it is WHEY better in its original
> form before it is pulverized and/or cooked.

Again, you dont know the data or the science. All the studies cited in
those aticles are using concentrates or isolates processed.

> > You're ignorant of the topic.
>
> I am ignorant on the topic of whey?

Yes, every comment you have made proves that.

All natural-Feel-good-how-you-make yogurt-goofyness snipped.

Now move along.

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

cleanskin@itspuresoap.com - 17 May 2007 23:03 GMT
Okay so isolates or concentrates were used. Obviously the nutrient
density is higher. But then again you've probably never heard of the
brix of food either. Again, which whey makers use grass fed, pesticide
free, hormone free cows? I'd love to know this. Vitamin A deficiency
from eating low fat proteins is not a wise move for your health. Good
luck! I'm done.

Tom
http://www.itspuresoap.com

> In article <1179431023.565928.104...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> "It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural
Will Brink - 18 May 2007 00:41 GMT
> Okay so isolates or concentrates were used. Obviously the nutrient
> density is higher. But then again you've probably never heard of the
> brix of food either. Again, which whey makers use grass fed, pesticide
> free, hormone free cows?

All you need to know about hormones in  whey:

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=14

BTW, there is no such thing as a "hormone free cow"

>I'd love to know this. Vitamin A deficiency
> from eating low fat proteins is not a wise move for your health.

More BS.

>Good
> luck! I'm done.

Promise?

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

JMW - 18 May 2007 00:21 GMT
>Healthy whole foods are always better than
>an isolated form stripped from their origin.

Yep.  There it is.  The classic moronic statement of the natural foods
luddites.

For instance, you wouldn't want to do any evil "processing and
denaturing" with the tropical world's most prominent food starch
source: cassava.  It would get rid of the yummy, natural cyanide!

People like you are a Darwin Award waiting to happen.
Will Brink - 18 May 2007 00:43 GMT
> >Healthy whole foods are always better than
> >an isolated form stripped from their origin.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> denaturing" with the tropical world's most prominent food starch
> source: cassava.  It would get rid of the yummy, natural cyanide!

Uranium is natural also....

> People like you are a Darwin Award waiting to happen.

We have pretty much stopped natural selection in humans which is why we
have ended up where we are today.

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

Dave - 17 May 2007 18:53 GMT
> Please name for me a whey protein that uses only brown sugar or even
> regular sugar for sweetening and I'll happily endorse it.

The brown sugar I've seen is just white sugar + molasses. Is there something
else?

But I do support you in a lot of what you're saying. We just can't possibly
try to create a good diet by isolating compounds in powder form and putting
together a diet with them. It's like pretending we know all there is to know
about how the body processes food (I certainly don't, and I don't believe
even the best nutritionist out there does), and that we can do better than
nature. People make this mistake in all areas of science by becoming too
specialized in one subject and ignoring the context. But I do believe
there's value in whey and other supplements as long as they're only taken as
supplements in situations where it may be appropriate, making up only a
minor portion of our daily intake. There's just so many things in real food
that we're missing out on if we rely heavily on calorie-rich supplements. We
could certainly consume whey as a source of protein, but that's not
nutrition, not healthy, and someone consuming 1000 calories a day in whey is
missing out on the nutrition he'd be getting by eating real foods to make up
his daily protein intake.

The real problem, as I see it, is consumers buy lots and lots of whey and
take it like a magic formula that rationalizes an otherwise crappy diet.

David

Signature

Adamant Barbell
Unyielding steel, built for abuse
www.adamantbarbell.com

Omelet - 17 May 2007 19:03 GMT
> > Please name for me a whey protein that uses only brown sugar or even
> > regular sugar for sweetening and I'll happily endorse it.
>
> The brown sugar I've seen is just white sugar + molasses. Is there something
> else?

Change that to raw or turbinado sugar and yes, there is a difference.
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Peace, Om

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Prisoner at War - 18 May 2007 02:56 GMT
> <cleans...@itspuresoap.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Adamant Barbell
> Unyielding steel, built for abusewww.adamantbarbell.com

Well, I'm going to try some protein powder and see if it helps any.  I
never saw the point to them, but I guess it's like trying a new
exercise, just something to do to see if it's any "fun" -- for
example, I've only started doing squats and deadlifts last week!  I
especially enjoy deadlifts!  They used to feel awkward to me -- and I
still have to really mind my back and all -- but I so enjoy the sheer
power that's involved!  The bench press is nothing compared to the
deadlift!  The deadlift's like a cardio exercise, almost!  The squat's
okay, fun for the novelty factor.  Funny thing, I think the deadlift's
harder, though some folks seem to think the squat's the "King of
Exercises."

Anyway, the more I learn about supplementation, the more I find myself
looking at good ol' fashioned whole foods again!  I guess I'm bored
and trying protein and creatine powders will be an interesting
experiment -- but I've gained new-found respect for home cookin'!
David  Cohen - 16 May 2007 23:27 GMT
> All protein powders are crap. Stick with real food. Protein powders
> will actually pull fat soluble vitamins right out of you. AND all of
> them have some sort of synthetic sugar. Eat liver! One of nature's
> wonder foods.  Vince Gironda knew a lot of stuff way before anybody
> else! Also, check out the folks at http://www.westonaprice.org -
> really spot on for maximizing your health!

I love those potholders you folks make and am a big supporter of the Special
Olympics, so, ok, Corky, whatever you say. Here, have a cookie.

David
Prisoner at War - 18 May 2007 02:41 GMT
On May 16, 2:59 pm, cleans...@itspuresoap.com wrote:
> All protein powders are crap. Stick with real food. Protein powders
> will actually pull fat soluble vitamins right out of you. AND all of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Tomhttp://www.itspuresoap.com

Vince Gironda, eh?  Interesting...he was one of them Golden-Age-of-
Bodybuilding icons, I understand...now you have me wondering about
them old-timers!

It's funny you claim whey protein powders to be crap...this was the
very Spiel or sales pitch behind a Dorian Yates Approved protein
supplement ad in the muscle magazines!  It was the one titled "WHAT
(T)WHEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW"....
Will Brink - 16 May 2007 14:35 GMT
> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
> bodybuilder -- Labrada, Dave Draper's Bomber Blend, Dorian Yates
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> companies which sell rip-off protein powders, I've never heard a name
> mentioned at all.  So, which companies sell b.s. protein powders?

What is a "b.s. protein powder"? Define that first.

OCD/ADHD ramble snipped.

Signature

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

"It twas ever thus! " - Mr Natural

Tom Anderson - 16 May 2007 14:36 GMT
> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
> bodybuilder

What? Whose advice? Whoever it is, stop taking their advice, because
they're an idiot.

> But while folks on bodybuilding fora and sites believe that there are
> companies which sell rip-off protein powders, I've never heard a name
> mentioned at all.

Possibly because guys on fora are mostly retarded bullshitters.

Rip-off products in general, yes, but protein powder? The stuff is so
cheap for the manufacturers to buy that it doesn't seem worth it. I mean,
they'd have to find something cheaper to cut it with, and short of fly
ash, i can't think of anything!

tom

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Prisoner at War - 16 May 2007 16:42 GMT
The bodybuilding.com boards, for starters.  Of course, it's what those
ads themselves claim -- essentially, "my name is here because this is
real protein unlike some no-name brands."

Yes, whey protein does seem cheap these days -- surprised so many
college students are still living on ramen noodles! -- but that only
means the profits would be even greater for unscrupulous companies.

> What? Whose advice? Whoever it is, stop taking their advice, because
> they're an idiot.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and it is COOL. Then they LEAVE. Then the Raman vessel LEAVES. --
> Book-A-Minute SF/F
Tom Anderson - 17 May 2007 02:07 GMT
>> Rip-off products in general, yes, but protein powder? The stuff is so
>> cheap for the manufacturers to buy that it doesn't seem worth it. I mean,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> college students are still living on ramen noodles! -- but that only
> means the profits would be even greater for unscrupulous companies.

No it doesn't. It means exactly the opposite.

tom

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Prisoner at War - 18 May 2007 03:23 GMT
> > Yes, whey protein does seem cheap these days -- surprised so many
> > college students are still living on ramen noodles! -- but that only
> > means the profits would be even greater for unscrupulous companies.
>
> No it doesn't. It means exactly the opposite.

I think you're assuming that they'd get sued and lose money.  But good
luck trying to do that on your own.  Besides, a fly-by-night operation
wouldn't care: it'd simply declare bankruptcy, while the principals go
off and start up another venture.

Anyway, do they exist?  Are there protein powders which aren't really
protein, or somehow otherwise rip-offs?  For example, 33% of
glucosamine supps had been found to contain less than the amount
claimed on the labels: http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/3956.html.

> tom
>
> --
> Miscellaneous Terrorists: Ducks | Bird Flu | Avian flu | Jimbo Wales |
> Backstreet Boys | The Al Queda Network | Tesco -- Uncyclopedia
JMW - 16 May 2007 23:48 GMT
>> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
>> bodybuilder
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Possibly because guys on fora are mostly retarded bullshitters.

True.  But, then again, so is "Prisoner at War" aka "NYC XYZ."

Of course, when most of MFW finally figures that out, he'll just come
up with a new username and start all over again.
Tom Anderson - 17 May 2007 02:08 GMT
>>> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
>>> bodybuilder
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Of course, when most of MFW finally figures that out, he'll just come up
> with a new username and start all over again.

Shhh! I haven't had a good flamewar in ages.

tom

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Prisoner at War - 18 May 2007 03:54 GMT
> Shhh! I haven't had a good flamewar in ages.

Oh, is that all he wanted.  Well, that socially-challenged retard
could've simply asked.  Okay, here's some fodder for all y'all's
vitriol:

What's with the homosexual look in bodybuilding??  I swear this sport
is f.cking weird!  I open up muscle mags and I see guys wearing
striped tights with earrings and sh.t...one whiteboy, with his black
girlfriend spotting him, had on a pink tank top that said "Marines" in
flourescent yellow!  WTF is up with that?!?!  And today I just got my
copy of "Stay Hungry" with Schwarzenegger and in the original
theatrical trailer a girl goes "people in your sport are, you know..."
and Arnold finishes her sentence with "you mean homosexual?"

> tom
>
> --
> Miscellaneous Terrorists: Ducks | Bird Flu | Avian flu | Jimbo Wales |
> Backstreet Boys | The Al Queda Network | Tesco -- Uncyclopedia
Prisoner at War - 18 May 2007 03:03 GMT
> >> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
> >> bodybuilder
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Of course, when most of MFW finally figures that out, he'll just come
> up with a new username and start all over again.

JMW, you're such a sad little circus strongman, aren't you!

I change my e-mail account periodically because they eventually get
inundated with spam from usenet posting.  Do you really think I give a
f.ck whether MFW blowhards like you pay me any mind?

As a matter of fact, it's funny how I ignore you and you continue to
try to chat me up!  I guess your three cats just don't know you from a
pair of pink spandex shorts, eh?

Here's a hint, gomer: go to a coed gym.
JMW - 18 May 2007 06:13 GMT
>Here's a hint, gomer: go to a coed gym.

Are you referring to the middle school gym classes where you stalk
14-year-old latinas, chomo?
boogaoul@gmail.com - 18 May 2007 11:52 GMT
So what is natural bodybuilding, and how can I use its principles to
build muscle fast?

Well, natural bodybuilding is a way to build muscle and get a great
body without the use of drugs or substances.

But there are important steps to take so that you get real results
with your training, not just small results.

In this article, let's look at these principles of how to build muscle
naturally.

Natural Bodybuilding Tip Number 1

The safest and healthiest way to build muscle tissue is through using
a bodybuilding workout that actually works.

That is, one that uses sets and supersets in such a way that properly
stimulates muscle and gets a real 'pump' instead of one that does not
do this.

By using a technique and program that stimulates the muscle group
about once every 5-7 days, you'll avoid overtraining.

But the exercises has to be ones that are effective, not too
isolating.

You will see the difference in no time, and begin to feel the great
effects that come from it as well, when you use a bodybuilding workout
routine that works.

Natural Bodybuilding Tip Number 2

Proper nutrition is needed to building muscle and not gaining fat.

Muscle requires more calories and protein to maintain its current
size. A diet rich in protein can help to achieve this.

The carbs? Use low GI carbs.

The oils? Use the helahy ones such as fish oil and olive oil. Olive
oil (use extra virgin as this is where the antioxidants are) as it (a
monounsaturated oil) stimulates natural testosterone production, and
fish oil is good as a natural anti-inflammatory for repair, and to
allow fat loss, amongst all its other benefits such as on the heart.

And proteins: Use lean sources of protein such as fish, chicken,
yoghurt, egg.

Depending on your body type, this may not be a huge increase in
nutrients, but is whatever your body needs to maintain more muscle,
but not so excessive that you start to gain fat.

Natural Bodybuilding Tip Number 3

As an option, you can take some natural supplements such as whey
protein powder, creatine or glutamine, or a combination of these.

With a very good body building plan you won't need to worry too much
about these supplements, they're only a bit of a boost.

The main emphasis here about natural bodybuilding is that you can gain
muscle naturally with naturally occuring nutrients, without the need
for steroids.

Because your gains are based on sound principles of a good workout and
a good diet, then it's sustainable and you get all the benefits.

So there you have it.

These are the solid tips to building muscle the natural way, and to do
it in a sustainable way.

The main thing is to use a workout that works, as this is the basis
for muscle growth, stimulation of metabolism to burn fat, and makes
the whole program work.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Abdu Galama is a personal coach from France. Do you use this 7
strategies to lose fat ? Visit my googlepages for free :
http://diet.cardio.googlepages.com
Prisoner at War - 18 May 2007 13:32 GMT
Jealous old fart, always with the fourteen year-old latinas!!!!  I
can't believe how you keep bringing that up like a jealous little kid
brother!

Just face the facts, man: even their moms like me!  The one thing
girls can't do is keep a secret -- but I'm still here!  And that burns
you up, doesn't it?  Burns you up that someone is living the life of a
free man, not constrained by phony Judeo-Christian morality.

JMW, please learn to enjoy life, and live it to the fullest.

> Are you referring to the middle school gym classes where you stalk
> 14-year-old latinas, chomo?
JMW - 19 May 2007 01:06 GMT
>... always with the fourteen year-old latinas!!!!  I
>
>Just face the facts, man: even their moms like me!  The one thing
>girls can't do is keep a secret

Must be the "chubby Asian dweeb" thing, like Hiro Nakamura in
"Heroes."
Prisoner at War - 20 May 2007 02:07 GMT
What's that, the Japanese porn you keep for company when Asian girls
pretend they don't speak English when you introduce yourself??

Actually, another great thing about being Asian is that most of us
don't have to worry about fat.

Must really eat you up that we don't have hairy backs and yet we don't
go bald, either!

> Must be the "chubby Asian dweeb" thing, like Hiro Nakamura in
> "Heroes."
Cubit - 16 May 2007 19:01 GMT
What do they cut it with?
Talcum powder?

> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
> bodybuilder -- Labrada, Dave Draper's Bomber Blend, Dorian Yates
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> construction company they had, which apparently afforded them all
> those hours at the gym and all those steroids!)....
Prisoner at War - 18 May 2007 03:05 GMT
> What do they cut it with?
> Talcum powder?

Well, I'm asking, amn't I?

Like how, for example, many glucosamine supplements were found to have
contained less than the amount claimed on the label -- Lord knows what
filler they could have used!

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/3956.html
dkw12002@yahoo.com - 16 May 2007 19:52 GMT
> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
> bodybuilder -- Labrada, Dave Draper's Bomber Blend, Dorian Yates
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> construction company they had, which apparently afforded them all
> those hours at the gym and all those steroids!)....

Better yet, don't buy protein supplements. If you want more protein
eat some nonfat egg whites at 3 gms per egg white. This makes them low
calorie as well. One body builder I know just eats some canned tuna
when he wants more protein. This fixation with getting protein is not
warranted by the research. It probably won't hurt you but it is a
waste of money. Protein is EASY to get in food...all you could
possibly want, even for us vegetarians. dkw
Jason Earl - 16 May 2007 20:37 GMT
>> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
>> bodybuilder -- Labrada, Dave Draper's Bomber Blend, Dorian Yates
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> low calorie as well. One body builder I know just eats some canned
> tuna when he wants more protein.

While both egg whites and tuna are great (and inexpensive) sources of
protein it really is hard to beat whey protein if you are
supplementing your protein intake.  First of all whey protein is less
expensive than egg whites and it doesn't have the mercury issues that
tuna does.  You don't even have to look around to get whey protein
that is less than $0.01 per gram of protein.  Costco or WalMart both
have what you need.

> This fixation with getting protein is not warranted by the
> research.

There has been plenty of recent research on protein supplementation
before and after exercise that shows that whey protein is well worth
its tiny price.

> It probably won't hurt you but it is a waste of money. Protein is
> EASY to get in food...all you could possibly want, even for us
> vegetarians. dkw

I agree that protein is fairly easy to get in real food sources.
However, whey protein is less expensive than almost all other high
quality protein sources, it is easy to take, and most whey protein
supplements even taste pretty good.

Whey protein *can* be a waste of money, but only if you insist on some
sort of designer brand.

Jason
Bully - 17 May 2007 06:42 GMT
>> Okay, the advice on protein powders is to buy from a company by a
>> bodybuilder -- Labrada, Dave Draper's Bomber Blend, Dorian Yates
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Better yet, don't buy protein supplements. If you want more protein
> eat some nonfat egg whites at 3 gms per egg white.

Great, 60 egg whites a day then!

> This makes them low
> calorie as well. One body builder I know just eats some canned tuna
> when he wants more protein.

BODYBUILDER EATS CANNED TUNA !!!

> This fixation with getting protein is not
> warranted by the research.

It's not? It's been working for me! Maybe the research is flawed eh?

> It probably won't hurt you but it is a
> waste of money.

Are you saying now NOT to eat the egg whites?

> Protein is EASY to get in food...all you could
> possibly want, even for us vegetarians. dkw

Really? How would you go about getting 180g per day then?

Signature

Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Prisoner at War - 18 May 2007 03:13 GMT
On May 16, 2:52 pm, "dkw12...@yahoo.com" <dkw12...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Better yet, don't buy protein supplements. If you want more protein
> eat some nonfat egg whites at 3 gms per egg white. This makes them low
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> waste of money. Protein is EASY to get in food...all you could
> possibly want, even for us vegetarians. dkw

True: Bill Pearl and Albert Beckles were vegetarian bodybuilders who
were champs!

I think I'll give it a shot, just for fun...I used to dismiss them,
but suddenly they've become new toys for me...I'm going to play with
protein and creatine powders this summer and see what happens.  But
it's funny how the more I try to read up about supplements the more I
come back to whole foods!  Nothing beats the original, eh.  =)
rick++ - 21 May 2007 15:44 GMT
Every once in a while a TV news program does a study and finds
about 75% are less than on the label or completely fake.
No US industry regulates this unless someone becomes ill.
Frequently such bills are proposed in Congress but rejected.
The problem is that the company would also have to prove
effectiveness claims, which doesnt have commercial support.

Protein powders are probably a good area for nitrogen spiking
which happened in pet foods.  Protein denser gluten was
replaced by cheap flour and a posionous nitrogen substitute.
Prisoner at War - 21 May 2007 18:21 GMT
> Every once in a while a TV news program does a study and finds
> about 75% are less than on the label or completely fake.

"20/20" must have done an episode or two on bodybuilding and protein
supplements, right?  I would love to see the transcripts.

> No US industry regulates this unless someone becomes ill.
> Frequently such bills are proposed in Congress but rejected.
> The problem is that the company would also have to prove
> effectiveness claims, which doesnt have commercial support.

Yeah, that's just the problem, isn't it.

What I'm wondering about here, though, is why the bodybuilding
discussion boards are so full of talk about lesser or even fake
protein supplements, but no one ever names a company!

> Protein powders are probably a good area for nitrogen spiking
> which happened in pet foods.  Protein denser gluten was
> replaced by cheap flour and a posionous nitrogen substitute.

?
kcmunchkin@gmail.com - 23 May 2007 17:17 GMT
On May 15, 10:01 pm, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> And, also, has Schwarzenegger ever done supplement endorsements
> himself?

he endorsed the short-lived Purepower line of supplements...HUGE was
the weight gainer based on supro soy proteing...MetaMax was the
metabolol competitor back in the days when metabolol and champion were
a big deal.  i think it was a Nature's Way line...don't remember how
long it lasted on the shelves...maybe three years at the most.

this was in the late 80's.  i just saw an ad the other day in one of
my old mags.
Prisoner at War - 25 May 2007 16:52 GMT
On May 23, 12:17 pm, "kcmunch...@gmail.com" <kcmunch...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On May 15, 10:01 pm, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> this was in the late 80's.  i just saw an ad the other day in one of
> my old mags.

Oh, cool!  Okay, so it was always like this, eh.

In "Pumping Iron" there's a scene where Arnold's doing a photoshoot
with girls all over him, apparently advertising one of them old-timey
bendable coil contraptions for the chest.

Do you have any info on his and Frank Columbu's construction
business?  They owned a cement company or something, something related
to construction...what did all them guys do?  Those were the days when
folks believed in training every day for hours and hours at a time,
morning and night!  So I wonder how they made their living -- not to
mention paying for all those drugs and having the money to travel to
contests and shows!
Joe - 25 May 2007 17:35 GMT
> Oh, cool!  Okay, so it was always like this, eh.
>
> In "Pumping Iron" there's a scene where Arnold's doing a photoshoot
> with girls all over him, apparently advertising one of them old-timey
> bendable coil contraptions for the chest.

> morning and night!  So I wonder how they made their living

You answered you own question. He didn't do that photo-shoot for free. I
think he "won a few bucks" from the contests too.

Joe 357/312/220 (or less)
 
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