Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / May 2008
Can I use Potassium Chloride or Potassium Sulphate as the coagulant for making Tofu ?
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hsyq8xg@gmail.com - 20 Apr 2008 03:14 GMT Hi !
I am thinking of making tofu.
Regular coagulants for the soy protein to make tofu are Calcium Sulphate (gypsum), Magnesium Chloride (nigari), or Magnesium Sulphate (epsom).
My chemistry is really bad, so I need help. I am thinking of substituting the Calcium or Magnesium in the coagulant process with Potassium.
My question is, can I use Potassium Chloride or Potassium Sulphate (potash) to be the coagulant for tofu ?
Would it be possible?
Would it be poisonous?
D. C. Sessions - 20 Apr 2008 04:01 GMT > Hi ! > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Would it be possible? I wouldn't bet on much coagulation, but I'm not a chemist. Keep in mind that Ca and Mg are both column II; K is column I.
> Would it be poisonous? Not in reasonable amounts, and you'd have to use a LOT of K to be dangerous -- enough that it would taste nasty.
| sh.t happens. Sometimes it happens to you. | +--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Salmon Egg - 20 Apr 2008 07:29 GMT In article <ba292def-d494-4746-8f8e-73d2d1e3beaf@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
> Hi ! > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Would it be poisonous? I am not a professional chemist but I think that I can help some.
The purpose of the salt is to discharge any residual charge on the colloidal particles. This removes the repulsive forces and allows the particles coalesce into larger particles (coagulation). Almost any electrolyte solution should do that.
Potassium ion is not highly toxic, but it can interfere with the functioning of nerves including those keeping the heart beating properly. At the least, I would want to know how much potassium is left in the tofu and how big a dose you get. Also run it by your doctor or pharmacist to find out how much trouble you can get into. Certainly, large amounts of the other substances you mention can get you into trouble. It just depends on the dose.
Gypsum is not highly soluble. That would indicate to me that you do not need high concentrations to coagulate. Certainly, epsom salts is not a problem in lw doses. Larger doses will keep you visiting the bathroom. I presume really large doses are harmful.
I believe that potash is potassium carbonate, not the sulfate.
Bill
Bob M - 20 Apr 2008 09:59 GMT The coagulation of the "vegetable casein" protein which forms tofu depends on a di or trivalent positively charged ion linking the protein molecules together into a large molecular network. Only ones suitable for use in food are calcium and magnesium. But too much magnesium is a laxative this leaves calcium it is usually added as calcium sulphate or calcium chloride occasionally as calcium lactate or acetate.
Bob M www.molab.co.nz
Marshall Price - 28 Apr 2008 04:44 GMT > The coagulation of the "vegetable casein" protein which forms tofu > depends on a di or trivalent positively charged ion linking the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Bob M > www.molab.co.nz Do you know which soft drinks contain significant amounts of phosphoric acid?
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Marshall Price - 03 May 2008 22:13 GMT > The coagulation of the "vegetable casein" protein which forms tofu > depends on a di or trivalent positively charged ion linking the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Bob M > www.molab.co.nz By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his website which confuses me: http://www.molab.co.nz/pages/cola-osteoporosis.php . Any comments on how he gets "50%" -- and what he means by it?
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Borek - 03 May 2008 22:50 GMT > By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his > website which confuses me: > http://www.molab.co.nz/pages/cola-osteoporosis.php . Any comments on > how he gets "50%" -- and what he means by it? You mean 50% like in 50% neutralization? It means nothing. To get pH 5.5 you have to neutralize a little bit more than first proton, say 0.1M acid plus 0.105M NaOH. If the 50% refers to real 50% - you end with perfect pH=pKa2 buffer, that gives pH close to neutral (pKa2=7.2).
Borek
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Marshall Price - 06 May 2008 07:38 GMT >> By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his >> website which confuses me: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Borek This is still way over my head. Could you elaborate a little more?
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Borek - 06 May 2008 09:23 GMT >>> By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his >>> website which confuses me: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> 0.1M acid plus 0.105M NaOH. If the 50% refers to real 50% - you end >> with perfect pH=pKa2 buffer, that gives pH close to neutral (pKa2=7.2).
> This is still way over my head. Could you elaborate a little more? Very generally speaking, phosphoric acid neutralization goes like that:
H3PO4 + 3NaOH -> Na3PO4 + H2O
50% means that you add half the amount of NaOH required. This in turn means that you: 1. Proceed completely with first step of neutralization, ie H3PO4 + NaOH -> NaH2PO4 + H2O 2. Proceed 50% into the second step of neutralization: NaH2PO4 + NaOH = Na2HPO4 + H2O
So, after 50% neutralization your solution is 50/50 H2PO4- and HPO4-2. This is a classic buffer solution, with pH described by so called Henderson-Hasselbalch equation, which in this particluar case takes form:
pH = 7.2 + log([HPO4-2]/[H2PO4-])
but we already know that [HPO4-2] = [H2PO4-] (remember, solution is 50/50). That leaves us with
pH = 7.2
There are fine details omitted and hidden assumptions done so nitpickers can bash almost every phrase in this post, but no matter how the'll try, their final pH will be around 7 as well.
To get solution with pH around 5.5 you have to neutralize first proton and add very small excess of base. I would call it 35% neutralization (assuming 100% is when the amount of base is three times that of acid, to account for the phosphoric acid "triprocity").
Now, you can define 100% neutralization in terms of single proton - ie 100% is when the reaction
H3PO4 + NaOH -> NaH2PO4 + H2O
is finished. That means full neutralization is 300%. This approach sometimes simplifies calculations. Still, 50% in this case is when you have 50/50 mixture af H3PO4 and H2PO4- - this is another buffer, with pH around 2.2. No matter how you try it is NOT 5.5.
Browse pH calculation lectures at
http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=pH-calculation&right=toc
if you need more. Or play with pH calculator from
http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=BATE&right=pH-calculator
to see for yourself how the pH changes for different solutions. There is a 30 day free trial so you can do it for free.
Borek
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Marshall Price - 08 May 2008 00:07 GMT >>>> By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his >>>> website which confuses me: [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Borek Wow. Thank you very much. (No wonder I didn't get it!)
When you say "full neutralization is 300%," is that because you need three times as many molecules of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) as you have of H3PO4 (phosphoric acid)? Why did you use NaOH in the example?
(Since I see phosphate groups so often in metabolic reactions, I was surprised to read that the phosphoric acid in soft drinks might cause problems.)
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Borek - 08 May 2008 08:59 GMT > When you say "full neutralization is 300%," is that because you need > three times as many molecules of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) as you have of > H3PO4 (phosphoric acid)? Yes, that's neutralization stoichiometry.
> Why did you use NaOH in the example? Why not? :) Neutralization reactions are easiest to analyze when you use strong acids/bases in calculations. NaOH or KOH are commonly used for that purpose when speaking acid neutralization, HCl - when speaking about base neutralization.
Borek
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Marshall Price - 13 May 2008 09:45 GMT >> When you say "full neutralization is 300%," is that because you need >> three times as many molecules of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) as you have of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > purpose when speaking acid neutralization, HCl - when speaking about base > neutralization. That's what I thought. (I'm trying to catch up on the chemistry I missed when I dropped out.)
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Marshall Price - 08 May 2008 06:48 GMT Another silly question, Borek!
Molony says:
----- Foods contain ... two groups [of acids];
[M]etabolisable acids ... which can be broken down and completely destroyed For example citric acid, acetic acid, lactic acid etc.
And
[N]on metabolisable or fixed acids which are not destroyed by the body. For example hydrochloric acid, sulphuric acid, phosphoric acid etc. -----
Are these two categories simply (1) organic and (2) inorganic acids, or is that too simple?
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Borek - 08 May 2008 09:17 GMT > ----- > Foods contain ... two groups [of acids]; [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Are these two categories simply (1) organic and (2) inorganic acids, > or is that too simple? It can work as a first approximation, but it is very likely there are organic acids that'll will be not metabolised.
Borek
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Marshall Price - 13 May 2008 09:50 GMT >> ----- >> Foods contain ... two groups [of acids]; [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It can work as a first approximation, but it is very likely there are > organic acids that'll will be not metabolised. They'd be organic, but not carboxylic acids?
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trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 20 Apr 2008 16:10 GMT I'd think vinegar or a bit of heat would work to form soy curd as well. I'd avoid the potassium chemicals. I've tried the potassium based baking powders in the past and it alters the taste and not in a favorable way. Though this does indicate the nervous Nellies concerned that a trace of potassium will kill is overblown and reflects a lack of understanding of what is going to be eaten here that is the solid not the liquid. If one drinks pickle brine don't be surprised if one gets a trip to the ER for congestive heart failure due to the excess NaCl. Don't drink brine whether it contains Na+ or K+.
Potash ash is crude potassium carbonate as I recall.
I suppose potassium sulfate might work though the working end of the deal if it works would be the sulfate anion given it minus two charge. It likely would work. I'd rinse the curd. The remain dose of potassium should be pretty low, likely doing no more than replacing some of the K+ which is lost in the processing of the beans.
The other issue would be the issue of the purity of the various proposed salts here and what else they might contain.
Sample carefully in case I missed something and it is going to kill in larger doses ;-) Before you take your next breath ask your Doctor whether it is safe and whether it is good to continue. Hold that breath, now.
hsyq...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi ! > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Would it be poisonous? D. C. Sessions - 20 Apr 2008 18:40 GMT > I'd avoid the potassium chemicals. I've tried the potassium based > baking powders in the past and it alters the taste and not in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > due to the excess NaCl. Don't drink brine whether it > contains Na+ or K+. Let's keep things in perspective here. The RDA for potassium is 3000 mg. You can eat a potato without danger of dropping over from the potassium content.
Morton "Lite Salt" is something like 40% potassium chloride. I use the stuff all the time as a supplement.
| sh.t happens. Sometimes it happens to you. | +--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Bill Penrose - 20 Apr 2008 20:05 GMT On Apr 20, 8:10 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Though this does indicate the nervous > Nellies concerned that a trace of potassium will kill is > overblown Most people are okay, but certain people, or people taking certain blood pressure medicines can develop heart irregularities.
But for the tofu thing, potassium is probably the last choice anyway. Buy some calcium capsules and empty them (or crush up some drywall if you want) and some epsom salts (magnesium sulfate).
Dangerous Bill
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 21 Apr 2008 18:23 GMT Yes, it seems there are medical outliers but they shouldn't dictate what the rest of the population does. (I make this comment based on all the products that dangerous to some section of the population i.e. gluten, peanuts, corn, and so on.) For example, people on kidney dialysis are placed on restrict potassium diets and as other have mentioned some use KCL as salt substitute. Even at that as I pointed out, potassium sulphate would largely be washed away provided the curd is rinsed. Assuming this even works.
Don't be silly.....crush drywall. Do you realize makers add anti-mold additives to the stuff. I won't even put the remainders from my dry wall work in hole in the garden, rather, I send it to the land fill in the next state.
> On Apr 20, 8:10 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |" > <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Dangerous Bill Bill Penrose - 20 Apr 2008 20:01 GMT On Apr 19, 7:14 pm, hsyq...@gmail.com wrote:
> My question is, can I use Potassium Chloride or Potassium Sulphate > (potash) to be the coagulant for tofu ? No.
Dangerous Bill
Marshall Price - 28 Apr 2008 04:40 GMT > Hi ! > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Would it be poisonous? I'd go for it if I knew how to make tofu. The worst that could happen is that it would taste bad. Can you make it from soy milk?
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