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Can I use Potassium Chloride or Potassium Sulphate as the coagulant     for making Tofu ?

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hsyq8xg@gmail.com - 20 Apr 2008 03:14 GMT
Hi !

I am thinking of making tofu.

Regular coagulants for the soy protein to make tofu are Calcium
Sulphate (gypsum), Magnesium Chloride (nigari), or Magnesium Sulphate
(epsom).

My chemistry is really bad, so I need help. I am thinking of
substituting the Calcium or Magnesium in the coagulant process with
Potassium.

My question is, can I use Potassium Chloride or Potassium Sulphate
(potash) to be the coagulant for tofu ?

                Would it be possible?

                Would it be poisonous?
D. C. Sessions - 20 Apr 2008 04:01 GMT
> Hi !
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>                               Would it be possible?

I wouldn't bet on much coagulation, but I'm not a chemist.
Keep in mind that Ca and Mg are both column II; K is
column I.

>                               Would it be poisonous?

Not in reasonable amounts, and you'd have to use a LOT
of K to be dangerous -- enough that it would taste nasty.

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Salmon Egg - 20 Apr 2008 07:29 GMT
In article
<ba292def-d494-4746-8f8e-73d2d1e3beaf@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,

> Hi !
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>                 Would it be poisonous?

I am not a professional chemist but I think that I can help some.

The purpose of the salt is to discharge any residual charge on the
colloidal particles. This removes the repulsive forces and allows the
particles coalesce into larger particles (coagulation). Almost any
electrolyte solution should do that.

Potassium ion is not highly toxic, but it can interfere with the
functioning of nerves including those keeping the heart beating
properly. At the least, I would want to know how much potassium is left
in the tofu and how big a dose you get. Also run it by your doctor or
pharmacist to find out how much trouble you can get into. Certainly,
large amounts of the other substances you mention can get you into
trouble. It just depends on the dose.

Gypsum is not highly soluble. That would indicate to me that you do not
need high concentrations to coagulate. Certainly, epsom salts is not a
problem in lw doses. Larger doses will keep you visiting the bathroom. I
presume really large doses are harmful.

I believe that potash is potassium carbonate, not the sulfate.

Bill
Bob M - 20 Apr 2008 09:59 GMT
The coagulation of the "vegetable casein" protein which forms tofu
depends on a di or trivalent positively charged ion linking the
protein molecules together into a large molecular network. Only ones
suitable for use in food are calcium and magnesium. But too much
magnesium is a laxative this leaves calcium it is usually added as
calcium sulphate or calcium chloride occasionally as calcium lactate
or acetate.

Bob M
www.molab.co.nz
Marshall Price - 28 Apr 2008 04:44 GMT
> The coagulation of the "vegetable casein" protein which forms tofu
> depends on a di or trivalent positively charged ion linking the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Bob M
> www.molab.co.nz

  Do you know which soft drinks contain significant amounts of
phosphoric acid?

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Marshall Price - 03 May 2008 22:13 GMT
> The coagulation of the "vegetable casein" protein which forms tofu
> depends on a di or trivalent positively charged ion linking the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Bob M
> www.molab.co.nz

  By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his
website which confuses me:
http://www.molab.co.nz/pages/cola-osteoporosis.php .  Any comments on
how he gets "50%" -- and what he means by it?

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Borek - 03 May 2008 22:50 GMT
>    By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his  
> website which confuses me:  
> http://www.molab.co.nz/pages/cola-osteoporosis.php .  Any comments on  
> how he gets "50%" -- and what he means by it?

You mean 50% like in 50% neutralization? It means nothing. To get pH 5.5  
you have to neutralize a little bit more than first proton, say 0.1M acid  
plus 0.105M NaOH. If the 50% refers to real 50% - you end with perfect  
pH=pKa2 buffer, that gives pH close to neutral (pKa2=7.2).

Borek
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http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=Buffer-Maker&right=buffer-calculator

Marshall Price - 06 May 2008 07:38 GMT
>>    By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his  
>> website which confuses me:  
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Borek

  This is still way over my head.  Could you elaborate a little more?

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Borek - 06 May 2008 09:23 GMT
>>>    By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his  
>>> website which confuses me:  
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> 0.1M acid  plus 0.105M NaOH. If the 50% refers to real 50% - you end  
>> with perfect  pH=pKa2 buffer, that gives pH close to neutral (pKa2=7.2).

>    This is still way over my head.  Could you elaborate a little more?

Very generally speaking, phosphoric acid neutralization goes like that:

H3PO4 + 3NaOH -> Na3PO4 + H2O

50% means that you add half the amount of NaOH required. This in turn  
means that you:
1. Proceed completely with first step of neutralization, ie
H3PO4 + NaOH -> NaH2PO4 + H2O
2. Proceed 50% into the second step of neutralization:
NaH2PO4 + NaOH = Na2HPO4 + H2O

So, after 50% neutralization your solution is 50/50 H2PO4- and HPO4-2.  
This is a classic buffer solution, with pH described by so called  
Henderson-Hasselbalch equation, which in this particluar case takes form:

pH = 7.2 + log([HPO4-2]/[H2PO4-])

but we already know that [HPO4-2] = [H2PO4-] (remember, solution is  
50/50). That leaves us with

pH = 7.2

There are fine details omitted and hidden assumptions done so nitpickers  
can bash almost every phrase in this post, but no matter how the'll try,  
their final pH will be around 7 as well.

To get solution with pH around 5.5 you have to neutralize first proton and  
add very small excess of base. I would call it 35% neutralization  
(assuming 100% is when the amount of base is three times that of acid, to  
account for the phosphoric acid "triprocity").

Now, you can define 100% neutralization in terms of single proton - ie  
100% is when the reaction

H3PO4 + NaOH -> NaH2PO4 + H2O

is finished. That means full neutralization is 300%. This approach  
sometimes simplifies calculations. Still, 50% in this case is when you  
have 50/50 mixture af H3PO4 and H2PO4- - this is another buffer, with pH  
around 2.2. No matter how you try it is NOT 5.5.

Browse pH calculation lectures at

http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=pH-calculation&right=toc

if you need more. Or play with pH calculator from

http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=BATE&right=pH-calculator

to see for yourself how the pH changes for different solutions. There is a  
30 day free trial so you can do it for free.

Borek
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Marshall Price - 08 May 2008 00:07 GMT
>>>>    By the way, Bob M has a discussion about phosphoric acid on his  
>>>> website which confuses me:  
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> Borek

  Wow.  Thank you very much.  (No wonder I didn't get it!)

  When you say "full neutralization is 300%," is that because you need
three times as many molecules of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) as you have of
H3PO4 (phosphoric acid)?  Why did you use NaOH in the example?

  (Since I see phosphate groups so often in metabolic reactions, I was
surprised to read that the phosphoric acid in soft drinks might cause
problems.)

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Borek - 08 May 2008 08:59 GMT
>    When you say "full neutralization is 300%," is that because you need  
> three times as many molecules of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) as you have of  
> H3PO4 (phosphoric acid)?

Yes, that's neutralization stoichiometry.

> Why did you use NaOH in the example?

Why not? :) Neutralization reactions are easiest to analyze when you use  
strong acids/bases in calculations. NaOH or KOH are commonly used for that  
purpose when speaking acid neutralization, HCl - when speaking about base  
neutralization.

Borek
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Marshall Price - 13 May 2008 09:45 GMT
>>    When you say "full neutralization is 300%," is that because you need  
>> three times as many molecules of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) as you have of  
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> purpose when speaking acid neutralization, HCl - when speaking about base  
> neutralization.

  That's what I thought.  (I'm trying to catch up on the chemistry I
missed when I dropped out.)

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Marshall Price - 08 May 2008 06:48 GMT
Another silly question, Borek!

  Molony says:

-----
Foods contain ... two groups [of acids];

[M]etabolisable acids ... which can be broken down and completely
destroyed For example citric acid, acetic acid, lactic acid etc.

And

[N]on metabolisable or fixed acids which are not destroyed by the body.
For example hydrochloric acid, sulphuric acid, phosphoric acid etc.
-----

  Are these two categories simply (1) organic and (2) inorganic acids,
or is that too simple?

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Borek - 08 May 2008 09:17 GMT
> -----
> Foods contain ... two groups [of acids];
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>    Are these two categories simply (1) organic and (2) inorganic acids,  
> or is that too simple?

It can work as a first approximation, but it is very likely there are  
organic acids that'll will be not metabolised.

Borek
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http://www.ph-meter.info

Marshall Price - 13 May 2008 09:50 GMT
>> -----
>> Foods contain ... two groups [of acids];
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> It can work as a first approximation, but it is very likely there are  
> organic acids that'll will be not metabolised.

  They'd be organic, but not carboxylic acids?

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Marshall Price of Miami
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trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 20 Apr 2008 16:10 GMT
I'd think vinegar or a bit of heat would work to form soy curd as
well.
I'd avoid the potassium chemicals. I've tried the potassium based
baking powders in the past and it alters the taste and not in
a favorable way. Though this does indicate the nervous
Nellies concerned that a trace of potassium will kill is
overblown and reflects a lack of understanding of
what is going to be eaten here that is the solid not the
liquid. If one drinks pickle brine don't be surprised
if one gets a trip to the ER for congestive heart failure
due to the excess NaCl. Don't drink brine whether it
contains Na+ or K+.

Potash ash is crude potassium carbonate as I recall.

I suppose potassium sulfate might work though the
working end of the deal if it works would be the sulfate
anion given it minus two charge. It likely would work.
I'd rinse the curd. The remain dose of potassium should
be pretty low, likely doing no more than replacing some
of  the K+ which is lost in the processing of the beans.

The other issue would be the issue of the purity of
the various proposed salts here and what else they
might contain.

Sample carefully in case I missed something and it
is going to kill in larger doses ;-) Before you take
your next breath ask your Doctor whether it is safe
and whether it is good to continue. Hold that breath, now.

hsyq...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi !
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>                 Would it be poisonous?
D. C. Sessions - 20 Apr 2008 18:40 GMT
> I'd avoid the potassium chemicals. I've tried the potassium based
> baking powders in the past and it alters the taste and not in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> due to the excess NaCl. Don't drink brine whether it
> contains Na+ or K+.

Let's keep things in perspective here.  The RDA for
potassium is 3000 mg.  You can eat a potato without
danger of dropping over from the potassium content.

Morton "Lite Salt" is something like 40% potassium
chloride.  I use the stuff all the time as a supplement.

| sh.t happens.  Sometimes it happens to you. |
+--- D. C. Sessions <dcs@lumbercartel.com> ---+
Bill Penrose - 20 Apr 2008 20:05 GMT
On Apr 20, 8:10 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Though this does indicate the nervous
> Nellies concerned that a trace of potassium will kill is
> overblown

Most people are okay, but certain people, or people taking certain
blood pressure medicines can develop heart irregularities.

But for the tofu thing, potassium is probably the last choice anyway.
Buy some calcium capsules and empty them (or crush up some drywall if
you want) and some epsom salts (magnesium sulfate).

Dangerous Bill
trigonometry1972@gmail.com | - 21 Apr 2008 18:23 GMT
Yes, it seems there are medical outliers but they shouldn't dictate
what the rest of the population does. (I make this comment based
on all the products that dangerous to some section of the population
i.e. gluten, peanuts, corn, and so on.) For example, people on
kidney dialysis are placed on restrict potassium diets and
as other have mentioned some use KCL as salt substitute.
Even at that as I pointed out, potassium sulphate would largely be
washed
away provided the curd is rinsed. Assuming this even works.

Don't be silly.....crush drywall. Do you realize makers add
anti-mold additives to the stuff. I won't even put the
remainders from my dry wall work in hole in the garden, rather, I send
it to the land fill in the next state.

> On Apr 20, 8:10 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Dangerous Bill
Bill Penrose - 20 Apr 2008 20:01 GMT
On Apr 19, 7:14 pm, hsyq...@gmail.com wrote:
> My question is, can I use Potassium Chloride or Potassium Sulphate
> (potash) to be the coagulant for tofu ?

No.

Dangerous Bill
Marshall Price - 28 Apr 2008 04:40 GMT
> Hi !
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>                 Would it be poisonous?

  I'd go for it if I knew how to make tofu.  The worst that could
happen is that it would taste bad.  Can you make it from soy milk?

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