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Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / March 2004Easy cognition test?
I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without effect of learning (because I want to try it a few times). The reason for it is that I fast every thursday and am curious if at the end of my fasting period my memory or other cognitive abilities are in any way impaired. Something web based would be great. Again, the test I am looking for needs to be repeatable and therefore have randomly generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any suggestions? >I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would >test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any >suggestions? Are you into computer networking or repair at all? There are hundreds of sample tests for the various computer certifications out there that might fit what you are looking to achieve. But all the questions are usually networking, computer maintenance/repair type. But hey - do it long enough and you could be MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA, CCNP and all the other wonderful certifications expert... :-) Just get a deck of cards and play the 'memory' game where they are all turned upside down and you have to choose pairs. Do this every night and time yourself. Compare the time it takes on evenings when you fast to other evenings. j > I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would > test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any > suggestions? > Just get a deck of cards and play the 'memory' game where they are all > turned upside down and you have to choose pairs. Do this every night and > time yourself. Compare the time it takes on evenings when you fast to other > evenings. I am not familiar with this game, but it sounds like a good idea. i > j >> I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any >> suggestions? > > Just get a deck of cards and play the 'memory' game where they are all > > turned upside down and you have to choose pairs. Do this every night and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > i As an aside, I do a crossword every day. It has a timer in the corner and I notice that if I exercise before I do the puzzle, my time is much shorter - 11 or so minutes as opposed to when I don't exercise - 14 - 17 minutes. Lots of variables but the overall trend is that when I exercise, the puzzle seems much easier. j > > j > >> I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >> generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any > >> suggestions? Hey, I hadn't thought about that game for years. We used to play it when I was a kid. Over here it's called pelmanism. In fact, ig. I did a quick google for pelmanism and found an online version of the game straight away. janice 233/177/133 >Just get a deck of cards and play the 'memory' game where they are all >turned upside down and you have to choose pairs. Do this every night and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any >> suggestions? > I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would > test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any > suggestions? Groups of letters, 10 to 12 randomly generated and flashed for 3 seconds on the screen or on a card, then you write down as many letters as you can remember. Do maybe 10 trials and calculate percentage correct. Count backwards by 8's from a random number, tape it and time it for 30 or 60 seconds to check for accuracy and speed The "concentration" game someone mentioned is here, but I believe that game has some elements of luck besides memory. This is a link for "neuroscience for kids". I remember playing "grocery store" and some of the other memory games with my children as they grew up. http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chmemory.html#top . >> I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would >> test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Count backwards by 8's from a random number, tape it and time it for 30 or > 60 seconds to check for accuracy and speed Thanks, I like this suggestion. i > The "concentration" game someone mentioned is here, but I believe that game > has some elements of luck besides memory. This is a link for "neuroscience [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > . Try a MMSE (mini mental-state exam). Darryl. >I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would >test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any >suggestions? > Try a MMSE (mini mental-state exam). > > Darryl. LOL, How familiar are you with the questions Darryl? I doubt ignoramus will go into a state of dementia or delerium from a day of fasting! 8 out of 30 points are just knowing time and place! 2 more points for naming common objects, etc... >> Try a MMSE (mini mental-state exam). >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fasting! 8 out of 30 points are just knowing time and place! 2 more points > for naming common objects, etc... I have been fasting one day per week for 10 weeks already. I definitely do not go into delirium, but it would be interesting to see if fasting impairs thinking in any way. i > >> Try a MMSE (mini mental-state exam). > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > i I have no idea, but my guess is that it would not have a measurable effect when you are fasting one day out of 7 when your intake is otherwise a healthy one and you maintain a sensible weight. You do drink water and stay hydrated, I assume. A co-worker I knew "fasted" a couple of days out of each week, well, she drank only juice/liquids on those days and she was a lean, mean, thinking machine :) No science here, but it certainly didn't appear to do her any harm. > I have no idea, but my guess is that it would not have a measurable effect > when you are fasting one day out of 7 when your intake is otherwise a > healthy one and you maintain a sensible weight. Well, it surely does not harm me, but it would be interesting to see if my memory is in any way impaired at the end of Thursday. > You do drink water and stay hydrated, I assume. surely. > A co-worker I knew > "fasted" a couple of days out of each week, well, she drank only > juice/liquids on those days and she was a lean, mean, thinking > machine :) No science here, but it certainly didn't appear to do her > any harm. Was she fat before? Did she have to limit her eating on other days? i "Ignoramus16578" > > A co-worker I knew > > "fasted" a couple of days out of each week, well, she drank only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > i Her family, and she had a large one, were all overweight. Her mom and sisters especially. She decided she wasn't going down that road. She spent several years in the military, so exercise became part of her life early on, too. She ate large amounts of fruits, veggies, and moderate amts. of meats and breads with only occasional "treats" from what I saw on her "days off" from fasting. She never called off sick either, though she'd get an occasional cold. > "Ignoramus16578" >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > from fasting. She never called off sick either, though she'd get an > occasional cold. That's very interesting. I am considering, for my final maintenance, to simply fast 2 days per week and eat freely 5 days a week, or some such. i >> Try a MMSE (mini mental-state exam). > >LOL, How familiar are you with the questions Darryl? Familiar enough to know that orientation to time and place are 10 points and by definition its use is not limited to dementias. ;-) It's tonque-in-cheek even though long-term dietary restriction was recently shown to negatively affect cognition in rats. >I doubt ignoramus will go into a state of dementia or delerium from a day of >fasting! 8 out of 30 points are just knowing time and place! 2 more points >for naming common objects, etc... Darryl. p.s., registration is 3. > >> Try a MMSE (mini mental-state exam). > > > >LOL, How familiar are you with the questions Darryl? > > Familiar enough to know that orientation to time and place are 10 > points Fair enough. I concede by 2 points :) I immediately thought 4 questions for time and 4 for place makes 8 points. Date/month 2 points and City/state 2 points. In any case, point was ignoramus shouldn't have to worry about orientation to reality after a day of not eating. >and by definition its use is not limited to dementias. ;-) Don't forget delirium, and it would hardly be a useful exam to quantify degree of cognitive impairment, if any, after one day of fasting. > It's tonque-in-cheek That's what emoticons are for. Never know what you're gonna get on usenet. even though long-term dietary restriction was > recently shown to negatively affect cognition in rats. Hungry children don't do well in school. Old news ;-) About calorie restriction: If the studies I've been seeing lately are applicable to humans, that means we'll live longer free of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and such...but, OTOH, we are going to be dumber and sexually dysfunctional. Conclusion: Eat enough to keep your brain and your nether regions happy and the studies be dammed! >Eat enough to keep your brain and your nether regions happy and the studies >be dammed! Yes. Although we're going to need a bridge over that dam sooner rather than later. Perhaps in the form of resveratrol conjugates. Perhaps not. ;-) /Darryl drawing overlapping pentagons. > >Eat enough to keep your brain and your nether regions happy and the studies > >be dammed! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ;-) Ah, a definitive answer ;) Looks promising for cardio protective effect from what I've seen (mostly abstracts). > /Darryl drawing overlapping pentagons. Just tell me you're not wearing a foil hat. >> >Eat enough to keep your brain and your nether regions happy and the >studies [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Ah, a definitive answer ;) How many of us truly lol when reading a post? This is one time where I did. Rich... >Looks promising for cardio protective effect >from what I've seen (mostly abstracts). We've had on-again, off-again discussions on resveratrol in sci.life-extension. >> /Darryl drawing overlapping pentagons. > >Just tell me you're not wearing a foil hat. I say rich above because at school, we jokingly talk about the use of Al foil deflector beanies... http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html#BUILD /Darryl tenting fingers, shifting eyes and lol. "Darryl" <umpolung@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in > I say rich above because at school, we jokingly talk about the use of > Al foil deflector beanies... WE know. > About calorie restriction: > If the studies I've been seeing lately are applicable to humans, that means > we'll live longer free of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and such...but, > OTOH, we are going to be dumber and sexually dysfunctional. > Conclusion: As far as I know, CR does not make animals dumber. i >> About calorie restriction: >> If the studies I've been seeing lately are applicable to humans, that means [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >As far as I know, CR does not make animals dumber. Neurobiol. Aging. 25 (2004) 325-332 says "dietary restriction is beneficial for longevity but has negative effects on the performance of cognitive tasks...". Although someone will point out that the rats were kept at a stringent 280 g. In sci.life-extension Darryl <umpolung@removehotmail.com> wrote or quoted: > >As far as I know, CR does not make animals dumber. > > Neurobiol. Aging. 25 (2004) 325-332 says "dietary restriction is > beneficial for longevity but has negative effects on the performance > of cognitive tasks...". Although someone will point out that the rats > were kept at a stringent 280 g. ...and nobody seems to know if "*dietary* restriction" means that the animals were malnourished. It is possible that CR could adversely affects performance of mental tasks. In rodents it has been reported to improve some metrics and worsen others. It does seem to stem age-related cognitive decline, though - e.g.: ``Effect of life-long hypocaloric diet on age-related changes in motor and cognitive behavior in a rat population.'' - http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=2381501 ``Deterioration of spatial and nonspatial reference and working memory in aged rats: protective effect of life-long calorie restriction.'' - http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=1625765  Signature__________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply. > In sci.life-extension Darryl > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ...and nobody seems to know if "*dietary* restriction" means that the > animals were malnourished. Seems like the full text version would name the specific lab diet fed. (ok, I'm cheap and read abstracts) Clearly, there is a difference between calorie restriction while meeting basic nutritional needs and starvation. >> In sci.life-extension Darryl >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I'm cheap and read abstracts) Clearly, there is a difference between calorie >restriction while meeting basic nutritional needs and starvation. Here's part of the procedure... All subjects were initially fed ad libitum. On their arrival, they were handled approximately 15 min per day for 2 days and, starting on Day 3, trained on the Morris-type place task. After completion of the place task, the subjects were divided into a restricted group (n = 16) and an ad lib group (n = 16) in such a way that the mean escape latency and the mean body weight for each group were similar. Dietary restriction was initiated when the animals were 2.5 months of age. For the restricted group, about 10 g of standard laboratory rat food (Oriental Yeast, Ltd., Tokyo) was given every day to maintain their body weight at approximately 280 g. The same food was freely available to the ad lib group. Both groups had free access to water throughout the entire experimental period. The authors note that 280 g is more stringent than 3 other studies and equal to and less than in two others. Intraperitoneal injection of glucose at the age of 24-27 improved performance of the CR group in the spatial discrimination (Morris-type place task) to the level of the ad lib group. "Darryl" <umpolung@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in > (Oriental Yeast, Ltd., Tokyo) was given every day to maintain their > body weight at approximately 280 g. The same food was freely available [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the spatial discrimination (Morris-type place task) to the level of > the ad lib group. Interesting stuff. Thanks. > In sci.life-extension Darryl <umpolung@removehotmail.com> wrote or quoted: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=1625765 The rare reports of negative cognitive performance on some indices may be transient effects in relation to meal time, caloric and macronutrient content of the diet. The studies overall indicate that it is indeed neuroprotective against age-related cognitive decline. Physiol Behav. 1993 Sep;54(3):503-8. Related Articles, Links Mid-life onset of dietary restriction extends life and prolongs cognitive functioning. Means LW, Higgins JL, Fernandez TJ. Department of Psychology, East Carolina University, Greenville, NC 27858-4353. Fourteen-month-old C57BL/6 (NIA) mice were placed on a nutritionally complete diet providing 139.4 kcal/week. Over a 2-month period the food ration of experimental mice (AE) was reduced to 85 kcal/week, where it remained for the duration of the study. An aged control group (AC) continued with the higher calorie diet. At age 22 months, AC mice and half of the AE mice (AE22) were given a battery of behavioral tests. The remaining AE mice (AE25) were given the test battery at age 25 months. Also, a middle-aged control group (MC) was tested at age 13 months. Midlife onset caloric restriction (CR) increased longevity and preserved strength, coordination, and spontaneous alternation behavior, and altered responses to enclosed alleys. A spatial discrimination in the Morris water maze and a spatial delayed matching-to-sample water-escape task were insensitive to age and diet. The aged mice were adversely affected by testing. PMID: 8415944 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 1684539&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 1515233&dopt=Abstract Tim In sci.life-extension Tim <timothytn@my-deja.com> wrote or quoted: > The rare reports of negative cognitive performance on some indices > may be transient effects in relation to meal time, caloric and > macronutrient content of the diet. I'm more inclined towards the idea that fairly-severe CR results in energy economies that affect the brain, and deprive it of energy. Of course the brain is an important tissue - so we should expect it to get priority treatment - but it may not survive CR unscathed. > The studies overall indicate that it is indeed neuroprotective against > age-related cognitive decline. Yes. The most likely problem areas are short-term ones due to energy conservation - not long-term cognitive decline. There's also the possiblity that CR's ability to down-regulate growth processes affects brain cells growing new connections - which may affect the wiring of the brain in the long term - and possibly negatively influence its ability to adapt to novel situations. The MRI scans of the monkey brains that found that CR made bits of them shrink were perhaps not completely unexpected - but were not exactly reassuring: ``Age-related decline in striatal volume in rhesus monkeys: assessment of long-term calorie restriction.'' ``[...] Contrary to expectation, volumes of the putamen (not the caudate nucleus) were larger bilaterally in the CON than in the CR group both at middle age and senescence. [...]'' - http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=14749137 Signature__________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply. > ``Age-related decline in striatal volume in rhesus monkeys: assessment of > long-term calorie restriction.'' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > - http://calorierestriction.org/pmid/?n=14749137 The putamen is generally associated with subconscious motor control. (like swinging the arms while walking). I don't know if there's any evidence indicating an age-related change in this activity despite the apparent atrophy. Unless you have something. The area does atrophy in at least some motor diseases like PD and HD, but they cause more widespread changes rather than being in this case a more isolated phenomenon. The abstract below suggests perhaps parallel or related changes in the sensorimotor cortex. Brain Res. 2002 Mar 22;931(1):32-40. Related Articles, Links Caloric restricted male rats demonstrate fewer synapses in layer 2 of sensorimotor cortex. Shi L, Poe BH, Constance Linville M, Sonntag WE, Brunso-Bechtold JK. Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy, Medical Center Boulevard, Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Winston-Salem, NC 27157-1010, USA. lshi@wfubmc.edu Previous studies have demonstrated an age-related decline in the density of presumptive inhibitory synapses in layer 2 of rat sensorimotor cortex [J. Comp. Neurol. 439(1) (2001) 65]. Caloric restriction has been shown to ameliorate age-related deterioration in a variety of systems and to extend life span. The present study tested the hypothesis that caloric restriction would prevent the previously reported age-related synaptic decline. Accordingly, synaptic density in layer 2 of sensorimotor cortex was compared between 29-month-old male rats fed ad libitum and 29-month-old male rats that were caloric restricted (60% of ad libitum calories) from 4 months of age. In serial electron micrographs, the physical disector was used to determine the numerical density of presumptive excitatory and inhibitory synapses (those containing round or nonround vesicles, respectively) as well as that of neurons. Not only was the previously reported age-related decline in numerical density of presumptive inhibitory synapses not ameliorated by caloric restriction, the numerical density was significantly lower in caloric restricted than in ad libitum fed rats for total as well as for presumptive excitatory and inhibitory synapses. Analysis further revealed no difference in the numerical density of neurons in this region. Relating synapse density to neuron density as the ratio of synapses to neuron also demonstrated significantly fewer synapses per neuron in caloric restricted than in ad libitum fed old rats. Finally, synapse length was significantly less in caloric restricted rats. These results suggest that not only does caloric restriction fail to prevent the age-related decline in presumptive inhibitory synapses, it results in fewer presumptive excitatory synapses as well. PMID: 11897086 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Tim In sci.life-extension Tim <timothytn@my-deja.com> wrote or quoted: > > ``Age-related decline in striatal volume in rhesus monkeys: assessment of > > long-term calorie restriction.'' [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The putamen is generally associated with subconscious motor control. > (like swinging the arms while walking). [...] Yes - a sensory-motor structure. It doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that a reduced body size may require a smaller area of the brain to perform housekeeping tasks. That's a more friendly hypothesis than the body buring low-priority brain matter for fuel, at any rate! ;-) Signature__________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply. > > The putamen is generally associated with subconscious motor control. > > (like swinging the arms while walking). [...] > > Yes - a sensory-motor structure. Whether the changes in the cortex have any relation to changes in the putamen I suppose remains to be seen. There is also conscious motor control via the cortex from projection fibers. > It doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that a reduced body size may > require a smaller area of the brain to perform housekeeping tasks. Indeed, lesioning of the putamen results in athetosis (writhing movements) though thats a bit extreme. I've never heard of anything like that in CRed animals though we are comparing rodents and primates in this instance. > That's a more friendly hypothesis than the body buring low-priority > brain matter for fuel, at any rate! ;-) Seems that CR doesn't prevent all age-related neurological changes, though perhaps the ones related to oxidative damage. Neurochem Int. 2004 Jun;44(8):23-8. Links Alterations of markers related to synaptic function in aging rat brain, in normal conditions or under conditions of long-term dietary manipulation. Monti B, Virgili M, Contestabile A. Department of Biology, University of Bologna, Via Selmi 3, Bologna 40126, Italy. Neurochemical alterations of markers related to synaptic function are potential candidates for age-related impairment of brain function and cognition. The process of aging, including brain aging, can be counteracted to some degree by maintaning animals in long-term conditions of caloric restriction, or supplementing their diet with antioxidant substances. We report here that the age-related decline of the cholinergic and GABAergic systems, that takes place in some CNS regions of aged rats, is not affected by maintaining them under conditions of dietary restriction and, therefore, of reduced calorie intake, from the 12th to the 30th month of age. We also notice the same lack of effect by adding, during the same period, the aging rat diet with the potential antioxidant substance, N-acetylcysteine (NAC). The same dietary manipulations are also unable to counteract the derangement of the first step of the main biosynthetic pathway for polyamines, putative neuromodulators in the CNS, that occurs in the aged spinal cord. Some age-related alterations in the expression of different subunits of the NMDA-type glutamate receptors in some CNS regions of aged rats were instead, at least in some cases, counteracted by long-term dietary manipulation. PMID: 15016472 [PubMed - in process] Tim Ignoramus16578 <ignoramus16578@nospam.16578.invalid> wrote or quoted: > I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would > test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any > suggestions? Two posts makes a connection ;-) The "Concentration" game seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. http://www.hexadyne.com/Games/Applets/concentration/concentration.html ...has that as an applet. Consider also something like "Simon" - the colour/sound sequence learning game. http://www.ability.org.uk/simon.htm ...has Simon as an applet. Something similar using words might be a good idea as well - since verbal memory is probably different stuff. If you can solve Rubik's cube, perhaps time yourself doing it a few times. Not entirely cognitive - but balance tests are simple and easy - e.g. stand on one leg with your eyes closed and time yourself. If you can juggle there's quite a few good tests of various bits of your brain you can do in that domain as well. Lastly, http://directory.google.com/Top/Science/Social_Sciences/Psychology/Intelligence/ IQ_Tests/ ...has some useful-looking links. Not all are IQ-based - for example I clicked through to: http://www.psychtests.com/tests/alltests.html ...where there are a /lot/ of tests. Signature__________ |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply. >I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would >test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any >suggestions? No additional suggestions for quizzes, but I want to note that you should be sure to keep other possibly-relevant factors equal, such as amount of sleep and consumption of caffeine. Julianne also notes that exercise might be a relevant factor. Chris >>I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would >>test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Chris That's a good point and one that I will try to stick to (and also will test several times if possible). i > I would like to find some easy 5-10 minute cognition test that would > test some basic memory skills, and that could be repeated without [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > generated questions and not the same questions every time I test. Any > suggestions? I'd conclude there was some memory impairment if, say, you forgot to take the test... More seriously, I'd think pro or con conclusions would be hard to draw from any result that's not way off the charts (e.g., spending Thursday nights in a coma). In a 1-day-in-7 fast, the lucky day must seem like such a thunderclap to your body's routine that you'd almost have to expect noisy results. At the very least I might run the test on Wednesday night, too. Signature/---------------------------\ | YOUR taste at work... | | | | http://www.moviepig.com | \---------------------------/ |
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