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optifast

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FRED - 23 Mar 2004 00:38 GMT
Any body tried optifast? is it a good program? does it work?. It looks very
hard to do but I have a lot of weight to loose and really need to do
something while I can still stand up and walk
Patricia Heil - 23 Mar 2004 02:44 GMT
While you can still stand up and walk, walk a lot.  That is how
to be healthy.  Also start keeping a food diary.  After about a
month, go through it and start replacing food that has a lot of
fat, with food that has a lot of fiber.  

> Any body tried optifast? is it a good program? does it work?. It looks very
> hard to do but I have a lot of weight to loose and really need to do
> something while I can still stand up and walk
Heywood Mogroot - 23 Mar 2004 07:41 GMT
> While you can still stand up and walk, walk a lot.  That is how
> to be healthy.  Also start keeping a food diary.  After about a
> month, go through it and start replacing food that has a lot of
> fat, with food that has a lot of fiber.  

Not to mention thinking about cutting out nearly all the processed
sugars & starch.

Getting rid of these has been a very simple and effective change to the
way I eat. I don't avoid fructose found in fruits, and the occasional HF
corn syrup hidden in products like ketchup & bbq sauce, but cutting out
the vast bulk of "carbs" has worked out very well so far (unless I've
just lost water so far =:o).

Keeping a balance between fat, protein, and carbs has really evened out
my energy burning, eg. removing those mid-day dips I'd fall into after
knocking back a 16oz Mountain Dew or two during lunch.

Heywood

~235 / 220.5 / 188 (eating right since 2/15/04)
Heywood Mogroot - 23 Mar 2004 04:51 GMT
> Any body tried optifast? is it a good program? does it work?. It looks very
> hard to do but I have a lot of weight to loose and really need to do
> something while I can still stand up and walk

you're not the first to ask that question on this newsgroup:

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&threadm
=d1768317bf57c895906c6adf4ba0d434%40news.meganetnews.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dalt.
support.diet%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch


Basic summary is that you are basically guaranteed to lose the weight
in a very short time, but with these downsides:

1) The plan shuts down / is hazardous to your gallbladder

2) You don't really learn how to construct (and stick to) workable
meals with this diet

3) Since your body is put into starvation mode it will want to latch
on to any fat & carbs you start eating after it, and exercising will
likely just drive this survival response worse.

I have read about 2 semi-acquaintances (very, very smart people) who
have tried this program, and both have regained the weight again.

bottom line: seek to lose ~2lbs/week in a sensible manner. 100lbs/year
is fast enough for most people, and puts your body through less stress
(I think). Certainly your stretched skin will thank you, at least.

7000 kcal/week calorie deficit is about 5000 in food and 2000 in
exercise, or 700 kcals/day less food than you need, and 300 kcals of
exercise, about an hour or so.
FRED - 23 Mar 2004 05:32 GMT
Thanks for replying, unfortunately, I sort of suspected that might be the
case, is there any FAQ for this group?  I think I need to work out how many
calories a day I can eat and still loose

Cheers

> > Any body tried optifast? is it a good program? does it work?. It looks very
> > hard to do but I have a lot of weight to loose and really need to do
> > something while I can still stand up and walk
>
> you're not the first to ask that question on this newsgroup:

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&threadm
=d1768317bf57c895906c6adf4ba0d434%40news.meganetnews.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dalt.
support.diet%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch


> Basic summary is that you are basically guaranteed to lose the weight
> in a very short time, but with these downsides:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> exercise, or 700 kcals/day less food than you need, and 300 kcals of
> exercise, about an hour or so.
Beverly - 23 Mar 2004 14:10 GMT
> Thanks for replying, unfortunately, I sort of suspected that might be the
> case, is there any FAQ for this group?  I think I need to work out how many
> calories a day I can eat and still loose
>
> Cheers

Many in the group suggest 10 x current weight as the starting point for
losing weight.  Follow it for a couple of weeks and determine your rate of
loss.  Adjust your calories based on your weight loss during this time.

Here are a few links many of us use.  www.fitday.com allows you to enter
your food intake and track calories, protein, carbs and fat.

http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html has excellent information on
exercise and diet.  It's geared toward women but the info is for everyone.

Hope to see you posting often.

Beverly

> > "FRED" <FRED@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<d1768317bf57c895906c6adf4ba0d434@news.meganetnews.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > you're not the first to ask that question on this newsgroup:

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&th
readm=d1768317bf57c895906c6adf4ba0d434%40news.meganetnews.com&prev=/groups%
3Fq%3Dalt.support.diet%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%
2BSearch

> > Basic summary is that you are basically guaranteed to lose the weight
> > in a very short time, but with these downsides:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> > exercise, or 700 kcals/day less food than you need, and 300 kcals of
> > exercise, about an hour or so.
Heywood Mogroot - 23 Mar 2004 14:55 GMT
> Thanks for replying, unfortunately, I sort of suspected that might be the
> case, is there any FAQ for this group?  I think I need to work out how many
> calories a day I can eat and still loose

This varies by the individual. What I did was just shoot for an 875
calorie/day deficit. Apparently anything more than this buts the body
in starvation mode (not a good thing IMO).

They say a pound of fat yields 3500 calories. 3500 calories / 875
cal/day = 4 days, so theoretically it will take 4 days to lose one lb,
which is a  0.25 lb/day loss rate.

What I do is weigh in every morning (relatively dehydrated), and
average my weight with a moving average.

Calculating the average is easy:

Average_for_today = Average_for_yesterday + (Weight_for_today -
Average_for_yesterday) * 0.25.

This averaging smooths out variations in the weight reading, and
showed my weight dropping steadily at the desired 0.25 lb/day (even
though the daily weighings went up & down a lot).

This past week I've actually been losing weight too fast, so I'm
drinking more water and upping my calorie intake until the loss rate
gets back more closely to 0.25 lb/day.
Top Spin - 24 Mar 2004 06:23 GMT
>What I do is weigh in every morning (relatively dehydrated), and
>average my weight with a moving average.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Average_for_today = Average_for_yesterday + (Weight_for_today -
>Average_for_yesterday) * 0.25.

Interesting formula. How it is derived?

If I let,

  Anew = the new average (today's average)
  Aold = the old average (yesterday's average)
  Wnew = the new weight for today
  F = the weighting factor

Your formula is

  Anew = Aold + (Wnew - Aold) * F

What is the meaning of F?

The moving average formula I have always used is:

 Anew = ((Aold * F) + Wnew) / 1 + F

In this formula, F is the weight given to the previous average. The
closer F is to 1, the move slowly the moving average will change, as
more weight is given to history.

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Doug Freyburger - 24 Mar 2004 22:45 GMT
> >What I do is weigh in every morning (relatively dehydrated), and
> >average my weight with a moving average.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Interesting formula. How it is derived?

It's not really a moving average in the usual sense.  A moving average
in the usual sense would be adding your previous 7 weighings and
dividing by 7.  The above formula gives an exponentially decaying
influence on previous days.

The nice thing about an expontially decaying influence is if you have
one day thats 8 pounds different.  By this formula a day later it
has 0.25 times effect, 2 pounds.  The next day it has 0.25*0.25 times
the effect, 0.5 pounds, and so on.  Every day it has a quarter the
effect of the previous day.  One day that's far off has an effect
that fades rapidly.

> The moving average formula I have always used is:
>   Anew = ((Aold * F) + Wnew) / 1 + F

Mostly the top one is easier.
Ignoramus26794 - 25 Mar 2004 00:42 GMT
I wrote a perl script to calculate moving average automatically.

http://igor.chudov.com/weightloss/

check out my daily weight history page.

i

>> >What I do is weigh in every morning (relatively dehydrated), and
>> >average my weight with a moving average.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Mostly the top one is easier.
Heywood Mogroot - 24 Mar 2004 23:55 GMT
> >What I do is weigh in every morning (relatively dehydrated), and
> >average my weight with a moving average.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Interesting formula. How it is derived?

It's from John Walker's Hacker's Diet.

> If I let,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> What is the meaning of F?

(Wnew - Aold) is simply how much under today's weight is from the
moving average, so F is a scaling factor on how much of this delta is
added to the old average to get the new average.
F = 0 means the Anew never changes, and F = 1.0 means Anew always
equals Wnew.

0.1 is a slow modulating of the delta into the average, but since I
measure at the same time of day with similar hydration, I've found
0.25 to be about right.

> The moving average formula I have always used is:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> closer F is to 1, the move slowly the moving average will change, as
> more weight is given to history.

Substituting F-1 for F shows that your formula and mine are identical,
except my F equals your F - 1:

Anew =  (Aold*(F-1) + Wnew) / (1 + (F-1))
Anew =  (Aold*F - Aold + Wnew) / F
Anew =  Aold - Aold*F + Wnew*F
Anew =  Aold - (Aold + Wnew) * F
Anew =  Aold + (Wnew - Aold) * F

gee, the first time I've used 8th grade algebra in about 20 years...
Top Spin - 26 Mar 2004 03:54 GMT
>> The moving average formula I have always used is:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Anew =  (Aold*(F-1) + Wnew) / (1 + (F-1))
>Anew =  (Aold*F - Aold + Wnew) / F

OK to this point

>Anew =  Aold - Aold*F + Wnew*F

Whoa! My algebra is a lot more than 20 years old, but I can't get from
the previous step to this one. How did you get the out of the
denominator?

>Anew =  Aold - (Aold + Wnew) * F
>Anew =  Aold + (Wnew - Aold) * F
>
>gee, the first time I've used 8th grade algebra in about 20 years...

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Top Spin - 26 Mar 2004 08:17 GMT
>>> The moving average formula I have always used is:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>>
>>gee, the first time I've used 8th grade algebra in about 20 years...

You were close, but it turns out that the conversion from the F in my
formula to the F in yours is actually (1-F)/F.

If F1 = the F in my formula and F2 = the F in yours, then

  F1 = (1-F2) / F2

or the the other way around, it's:

  F2 = 1 / (F1 + 1)

In my formula, F represents the weight given to history. An F of 0.9
means that the old averages decay (or are discounted) by 10% each
iteration. I like this form because the higher the value of F1, the
slower the decay. It's intuitive to me what F1=.9 means. It means that
the historical data decays by a factor of .9.

I'm not sure exactly what the F in your formula represents. I think it
is also a decay factor, but applied to the difference between the
historical average and the current data point. I can get the exact
same results using that I get in mine with F1=.9 by setting F2=0.111,
but I don't know what that 0.111 means.

I can also get the same values that you get using your formula with
F2=.25 by using my formula with F1=3. Until now, I had not considered
using an F1 > 1. I was surprised to see that it converges.

Here are some sample data points showing how the two formulas handle a
10 followed by 9 5s as data points. The F1 column is my formula using
the F1 setting shows. The F2 column is the same for your formula.

This one is your example where F2=.25 (F1 = 3).

  i    X      F1       F2
           3.0000   0.2500
 1   10    10.00    10.00
 2    5     8.75     8.75
 3    5     7.81     7.81
 4    5     7.11     7.11
 5    5     6.58     6.58
 6    5     6.19     6.19
 7    5     5.89     5.89
 8    5     5.67     5.67
 9    5     5.50     5.50
10    5     5.38     5.38

This one gives equal weight to history and the cuirrent data point
(F1=1). I'm not sure how to describe F2=.5.

  i    X        F1       F2
            1.0000   0.5000
 1   10    10.00    10.00
 2    5     7.50     7.50
 3    5     6.25     6.25
 4    5     5.63     5.63
 5    5     5.31     5.31
 6    5     5.16     5.16
 7    5     5.08     5.08
 8    5     5.04     5.04
 9    5     5.02     5.02
10    5     5.01     5.01

This is F1 I usually use (.9). F2 is .5263.

  i    X        F1       F2
            0.9000   0.5263
 1   10    10.00    10.00
 2    5     7.37     7.37
 3    5     6.12     6.12
 4    5     5.53     5.53
 5    5     5.25     5.25
 6    5     5.12     5.12
 7    5     5.06     5.06
 8    5     5.03     5.03
 9    5     5.01     5.01
10    5     5.01     5.01

This last ones shows what .25 does in my formula (.8 in yours). This
one converges very rapidly.

  i    X       F1       F2
             0.2500   0.8000
 1   10    10.00    10.00
 2    5     6.00     6.00
 3    5     5.20     5.20
 4    5     5.04     5.04
 5    5     5.01     5.01
 6    5     5.00     5.00
 7    5     5.00     5.00
 8    5     5.00     5.00
 9    5     5.00     5.00
10    5     5.00     5.00

Well, I'm sure that's more than anyone wants to know about that, but I
had to do it.

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Heywood Mogroot - 26 Mar 2004 12:48 GMT
> In my formula, F represents the weight given to history. An F of 0.9
> means that the old averages decay (or are discounted) by 10% each
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> historical average and the current data point. I can get the exact
> same results using that I get in mine with F1=.9 by setting F2=0.111,

yeah, that's what you're (fixed) algebra proved.

> but I don't know what that 0.111 means.

My F is simply how aggressive the calculated average tracks the
measured weight.

0.0 is not at all. 1.0 is exact (no smoothing effect). Actually
anything greater than 0.4 doesn't have much smoothing effect.

0.25 is just the smallest factor (ie the most aggressive tracking)
that keeps my trending average above a couple of 2lb momentary rises
in my loss graph. Walker's Hacker's Diet uses 0.1, but I don't like
how this makes the trending average lag so much the actual weight
change.

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's my graph with the
0.25 factor:

homepage.mac.com/t_d/.Public/graph1.jpg

> This one gives equal weight to history and the cuirrent data point
> (F1=1). I'm not sure how to describe F2=.5.

"Split the difference". Pretty aggressive 'error' correction applied
to the average, not much point averaging if you're snapping it to the
actual measure so quickly.

My my chart above it's clear that so far I've needed 3-5 days to break
through any plateaus. Having the trending average continue to move
down even when my actual weight is plateau'd helps keep the motivation
going, and so far the trending average hasn't let me down (ie my
actual weight drops again, saving me from having the trending weight
decline stall altogether...
Heywood Mogroot - 26 Mar 2004 12:26 GMT
> >> The moving average formula I have always used is:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> the previous step to this one. How did you get the out of the
> denominator?

ah crap, forgot to multiply *both* sides by F.

I blame Excel. I haven't done math outside of excel since college.
Top Spin - 26 Mar 2004 12:42 GMT
>> Whoa! My algebra is a lot more than 20 years old, but I can't get from
>> the previous step to this one. How did you get the F out of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I blame Excel. I haven't done math outside of excel since college.

Someone really ought to file a complaint with MSFT. It's just criminal
that Excel is going around making people forget basic algebra! ;-)

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bicker 2004 - 26 Mar 2004 12:16 GMT
> Any body tried optifast? is it a good program? does it work?. It looks very
> hard to do but I have a lot of weight to loose and really need to do
> something while I can still stand up and walk

I used a similar program, HMR, to lose 100 pounds in 2001-2, and have
maintained the weight-loss for almost two years now.  It is a
fantastic approach for many, and proven the best approach for the
morbidly obese.


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