Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsGeneral TopicsLow CarbWeightWatchers
WeightAdviser.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / April 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Is this just bunk?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Rogue - 28 Apr 2004 21:06 GMT
Did anyone read the following article (it's long)?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1200549,00.html
It's entitled "The big fat con story" and is actually an excerpt from
The Obesity Myth: Why America's Obsession With Weight Is Hazardous To
Your Health by Paul Cosmos.

Some of it made sense and surprised me (the oft-quoted statistic that
300,000 US deaths per year are attributable to obesity did *not* take
into account smoking!); other parts seemed a little far-fetched (the
author argues perhaps Monicagate could have been avoided if Clinton
and Lewinsky weren't ridiculed for their weight).

I'd like to hear any opinions from asders who have read it. I found it
fascinating, even though it's making me question my weight loss goals.

Some of the more interesting parts:

--"The doctors and public health officials prosecuting the war on fat
would have us believe that who is or isn't fat is a scientific
question that can be answered by consulting something as crude as a
body mass index chart (the BMI is a simple mathematical formula that
puts people of different heights and weights on a single integrated
scale). This, like so many other claims at the heart of the case
against fat, is false. 'Fat' is a cultural construct. According to the
public health establishment's current BMI definitions, Brad Pitt,
Michael Jordan and Mel Gibson are all 'overweight', while Russell
Crowe, George Clooney and baseball star Sammy Sosa are all 'obese'.
According to America's fat police, if your BMI is over 25, then you
are 'overweight', full stop. Note also the radical difference between
how our culture defines 'fashionable' thinness for men and women. If
Jennifer Aniston had the same BMI as her husband Brad Pitt, she would
weigh approximately 55lb (nearly four stone) more than she does."

--"A 1996 project undertaken by scientists at the National Centre for
Health Statistics and Cornell University analysed the data from dozens
of previous studies, involving a total of more than 600,000 subjects
with up to a 30-year follow-up. Among non-smoking white men, the
lowest mortality rate was found among those with a BMI between 23 and
29, which means that a large majority of the men who lived longest
were 'overweight' according to government guidelines. The mortality
rate for white men in the supposedly ideal range of 19 to 21 was the
same as that for those in the 29 to 31 range (most of whom would be
defined now as 'obese'). In regard to non-smoking white women, the
study's conclusions were even more striking: the BMI range correlating
with the lowest mortality rate was extremely broad, from around 18 to
32, meaning a woman of average height could weigh anywhere within an
80-pound range without seeing any statistically significant change in
her risk of premature death."

--"Annual Deaths Attributable To Obesity In The United States, which
appeared in the Journal Of The American Medical Association (Jama) in
1999, is the source for the endlessly repeated statistic that
overweight causes around 300,000 extra deaths in the US every year.
(This 'fact' has been cited in the major media more than 1,700 times
in the past two years alone.) Look at these figures more closely. As
Glenn Gaesser, a professor at the University of Virginia points out,
studies have consistently failed to find any correlation between
increasing BMI and higher mortality in people 65 and over, and 78% of
the approximately 2.3 million annual deaths in the US occur among
people who are at least 65. Thus, 78% of all deaths lack even the
beginning of a statistical link with BMI. 'That leaves 500,000 annual
deaths in persons under 65 that might be related to BMI,' Gaesser told
me. 'These include deaths from every possible cause: motor vehicle and
other accidents, homicides, suicides, cigarettes, alcohol, microbial
agents, toxic agents, drug abuse, etc, etc. To think that 60% [ie,
300,000] of these deaths are due to body fat is absolutely
preposterous'"

--"Among supposedly 'ideal weight' individuals (BMI 18.5 to 24.9), the
study observed a mortality rate from cancer of 4.5 deaths for every
1,000 subjects. Among 'overweight' individuals (BMI 25 to 29.9 - a
category that currently includes about twice as many adult Americans
as the 'ideal weight' cohort), the cancer mortality rate was 4.4
deaths for every 1,000 subjects. In other words, 'overweight' people
actually had a lower overall cancer mortality rate than 'ideal weight'
individuals."

--"It is true that increasing weight is associated with high blood
pressure and certain types of heart disease. But even here there is
considerable evidence that this correlation is not necessarily a
product of being fat, but rather of losing and then regaining weight.
Obese patients who have been put on very low-calorie diets
subsequently display much higher rates of congestive heart failure
than equally fat people who did not attempt to lose weight in the
first place. The biggest evidentiary problem for those who insist
there is a strong causal link between increasing weight and heart
disease is that deaths from heart disease have been plunging at
precisely the same time that obesity rates have been skyrocketing."

Rogue
Heywood Mogroot - 29 Apr 2004 02:25 GMT
> --"The doctors and public health officials prosecuting the war on fat
> would have us believe that who is or isn't fat is a scientific
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Michael Jordan and Mel Gibson are all 'overweight', while Russell
> Crowe, George Clooney and baseball star Sammy Sosa are all 'obese'.

Well, BMI works in the fat-a.s case. Sure it has false-positives. So
what?

BMI certainly worked for me. I went from 200 (certainly a tad
overweight) to 233 over 3 years, but the gain was so gradual I
honestly didn't even notice it. Until my size 38" pants got too tight,
and pictures of me at a picnic came back. Earlier this year I read in
the paper that 233lbs for a 6'1" frame was considered obese, and for
my case it was entirely correct.

I've incorporated BMI in my daily statistics plot to help me focus on
what is important, getting back down to a 34" waist and dropping the
fat % of my body.

> According to America's fat police, if your BMI is over 25, then you
> are 'overweight', full stop. Note also the radical difference between
> how our culture defines 'fashionable' thinness for men and women. If
> Jennifer Aniston had the same BMI as her husband Brad Pitt, she would
> weigh approximately 55lb (nearly four stone) more than she does."

See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting
football linemen I guess.

> first place. The biggest evidentiary problem for those who insist
> there is a strong causal link between increasing weight and heart
> disease is that deaths from heart disease have been plunging at
> precisely the same time that obesity rates have been skyrocketing."

Better safe than sorry. For fat a.ses like me, getting under 27 BMI
seems like a good health move. YMMV, LOL.
Chris Braun - 29 Apr 2004 02:49 GMT
>See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting
>football linemen I guess.

I used to be fat and muscular, and I definitely wasn't a football
lineman,   (I'm a 56-year-old (well, in two days) woman.)  Now I'm
just muscular, though less so than I was when I was also fat.

There are many people who are fat as well as muscular.  Muscle and fat
are not mutually exclusive.  Many world class powerlifters are quite
fat as well as exceptionally muscular.  Look around the free weight
section of any gym and you'll see fat muscular people.  Building
muscle doesn't make one lose fat.  In fact, people who do serious
strength training tend to add fat as well as muscle.  That's why
bodybuilders -- who are focused on appearance, rather than just
strength for its own sake -- go through complex cycles of building and
cutting.

Chris
262/153/ (145-150)
Heywood Mogroot - 29 Apr 2004 07:09 GMT
> >See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting
> >football linemen I guess.
>
> I used to be fat and muscular, and I definitely wasn't a football
> lineman,   (I'm a 56-year-old (well, in two days) woman.)  Now I'm
> just muscular, though less so than I was when I was also fat.

by fat I mean fat like seriously obese, eg BMI of over 32 if you
subtracted all the extra muscle.

> There are many people who are fat as well as muscular.  Muscle and fat
> are not mutually exclusive.

But people who go to the gym religiously tend to have their nutrition
sorted out. Part of the culture, right?

>  Many world class powerlifters are quite
> fat as well as exceptionally muscular.

and sumo wrestlers I suppose...

You're correct that there are many fat & muscular people in the gym,
but I bet most of them have a BF% under 20%. Whether or not the % is
more important than the absolute poundage I don't know.
Chris Braun - 29 Apr 2004 14:10 GMT
>> >See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting
>> >football linemen I guess.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>by fat I mean fat like seriously obese, eg BMI of over 32 if you
>subtracted all the extra muscle.

Well, "subtracted all the extra muscle" is kind of the key here
(whatever "extra" means -- above the average?), and it's why BMI
doesn't make sense.  What you're talking about, in effect, is a
measurement of bodyfat percentage, which is a much more valid way of
determining if someone is too fat.  But when I weighed 262, even with
the muscle (and I had plenty; I was a state champion powerlifter), I
still had far too much bodyfat.

>> There are many people who are fat as well as muscular.  Muscle and fat
>> are not mutually exclusive.
>
>But people who go to the gym religiously tend to have their nutrition
>sorted out. Part of the culture, right?

Not everyone.  Lots of people (guys, particularly) are more into being
strong than into overall fitness.

>>  Many world class powerlifters are quite
>> fat as well as exceptionally muscular.
>
>and sumo wrestlers I suppose...

No doubt.  Also those Greco-Roman guys we saw in the last Olympics.

>You're correct that there are many fat & muscular people in the gym,
>but I bet most of them have a BF% under 20%. Whether or not the % is
>more important than the absolute poundage I don't know.

If their BF% is under 20%, I don't think "fat" is the right adjective
-- they are just heavy and muscular.  (My Olympic lifting coach is
5'10", 240 lbs., 6% bodyfat.  No one who has seen him would ever call
him fat.)  I don't think there's any question that BF% is what's
important than poundage.  I don't think there's a health downside to
having more muscle, or to having heavier bones or a larger frame, all
of which contribute to poundage.

But there are plenty of people in the gym -- and plenty of competitive
strength athletes -- with BF% > 20.

Chris
Heywood Mogroot - 29 Apr 2004 20:48 GMT
> >> >See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting
> >> >football linemen I guess.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Well, "subtracted all the extra muscle" is kind of the key here
> (whatever "extra" means -- above the average?)

yes.

>,and it's why BMI doesn't make sense.

for very muscular people yes. I was reacting to the OP that totally
tossed out the BMI in all cases. Just because BMI gives false
positives for obesity is no reason to go buy another bag of oreos
since the BMI is wrong for some football player.

> What you're talking about, in effect, is a
> measurement of bodyfat percentage, which is a much more valid way of
> determining if someone is too fat.  But when I weighed 262, even with
> the muscle (and I had plenty; I was a state champion powerlifter), I
> still had far too much bodyfat.

I would posit there aren't too many, in the scheme of things, state
champion powerlifters in this world.

My point is just that BMI is a good first-step test for relatively
ignorant mass audiences, since people like me can easily look up the
BMI from a table just knowing their height and weight.

> >> There are many people who are fat as well as muscular.  Muscle and fat
> >> are not mutually exclusive.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Not everyone.  Lots of people (guys, particularly) are more into being
> strong than into overall fitness.

Well, then they're active idiots and having the BMI more wrong for
them isn't going to change anything for them.

> >>  Many world class powerlifters are quite
> >> fat as well as exceptionally muscular.
> >
> >and sumo wrestlers I suppose...
>
> No doubt.  Also those Greco-Roman guys we saw in the last Olympics.

Would you agree the BMI is a good first-pass test for most people
though?

> >You're correct that there are many fat & muscular people in the gym,
> >but I bet most of them have a BF% under 20%. Whether or not the % is
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> having more muscle, or to having heavier bones or a larger frame, all
> of which contribute to poundage.

I meant fat poundage . . . eg is it fat % or fat  pounds that is
unhealthy?

> But there are plenty of people in the gym -- and plenty of competitive
> strength athletes -- with BF% > 20.

They exist, but they are the exceptions. 'course, I live in
California.
Lictor - 29 Apr 2004 22:33 GMT
> for very muscular people yes. I was reacting to the OP that totally
> tossed out the BMI in all cases. Just because BMI gives false
> positives for obesity is no reason to go buy another bag of oreos
> since the BMI is wrong for some football player.

The problem is that you have doctor who thought your ideal BMI is not
anywhere in the normal range, but right in the middle of it. For instance, I
have been told by doctors that my ideal weight should be 73kg for 1.82m
(BMI=22). That's complete bullshit. With my body configuration, there is no
way I can reach that weight without looking ill. My normal self-maintained
weight (before gaining the extra fat and doing diets) was 80kg, and back
then I had doctors telling me I should be losing weight because it was too
high - all that despite a body fat low enough to show a six-pack.With the
added age, I would look fine with around 85kg, which is already borderline
overweight. My father's self maintained BMI is around 26-27, and he never
did any weight lifting or bodybuilding (but he does a pretty physical work).
It's not just wrong for football players. It's wrong for a lot of people who
are naturally in the 25-27 range without having excessive body weight.
That's the very range where weight is not related to negative health impact.
Heywood Mogroot - 30 Apr 2004 06:05 GMT
> > for very muscular people yes. I was reacting to the OP that totally
> > tossed out the BMI in all cases. Just because BMI gives false
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> have been told by doctors that my ideal weight should be 73kg for 1.82m
> (BMI=22).

yup, that's a problem :)

190 for me (6' 1") is borderline overweight (25.1), but a BMI of 22
would make me a beanpole again...

>That's complete bullshit. With my body configuration, there is no
> way I can reach that weight without looking ill. My normal self-maintained
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> are naturally in the 25-27 range without having excessive body weight.
> That's the very range where weight is not related to negative health impact.

false positives aren't that big a deal for such a simple metric. I'm
surprised it works as well as it does.
Lictor - 30 Apr 2004 08:18 GMT
"Heywood Mogroot" <imouttahere@mac.com> wrote in message
> false positives aren't that big a deal for such a simple metric. I'm
> surprised it works as well as it does.

They're not a problem in the hand of intelligent people. They're a problem
in the hand of idiots. The problem is that many doctors (especially school
doctors) and insurance companies do qualify in the later category. Some
bodybuilders are refused health insurance just because their BMI say they're
obese. Some doctors fail to understand that the slightly overweight category
does not pack added health risk, especially if most of the fat is in the
lower body. When you know that around 85% of the diets prescribed by a
doctor fail long term, and that many will result in a weight above the
starting value (yo-yo effect), forcing people who do not need it on a diet
is a very serious matter. Likewise, a somewhat high BMI (25-28) is a
survival advantage for old people, past 60, those with that kind of BMI have
the highest survival chance of all BMI groups - at an age when malnutrition
and dehydratation become major problems, that extra fat and the water it
comes with are a real life insurance. Yet, many doctors will put these on a
diet (which can be very dangerous to old people with the dehydratation and
risk of malnutrition it comes with).
It's also a problem when fashion magazine use BMI as a score of how
fashionable you are.
Chris Braun - 30 Apr 2004 01:58 GMT
>Would you agree the BMI is a good first-pass test for most people
>though?

Well, to some extent, maybe.  BMI is no different than the old
height/weight charts that have fallen out of favor; it just distills
the chart into an equation.  In fact, the charts that I remember used
to have different values for small, medium, and large frame, so they
were at least taking weight of the person's bones into account.

But honestly I think most people can tell if they're too fat.  That
seems to be an adequate first-pass test.  

>I meant fat poundage . . . eg is it fat % or fat  pounds that is
>unhealthy?

Dunno, but everything I see seems to focus on fat %.  I don't know
that I've ever really heard a suggestion that fat pounds is the main
cause for concern, but it's a valid question.

Chris
Lictor - 30 Apr 2004 08:34 GMT
> Would you agree the BMI is a good first-pass test for most people
> though?

The problem comes from using the BMI as the main statistical tool to assess
the impact of obesity.
As a first-pass test, there are others that work just as well. The "can you
grab your belly in your hand" is as good a test as BMI calculation. :p It
just sounds a lot less scientific.

> I meant fat poundage . . . eg is it fat % or fat  pounds that is
unhealthy?

Not really. First, you would have to define two values, for men and women -
otherwise you will either include most women or exclude most men. Where you
put the fat is more important than the total amount of fat. The unhealthy
fat is the androit fat on your belly (that's why my "grab your belly" is
probably more accurate than BMI), because it's around your organs. Purely
gynoid fat (buttocks, legs) is not unhealthy unless you really have a *lot*
of it (then it strains the joints). The traditionnal prehistoric venus is
the woman with a *very* large butt and thighs and large breasts, but with a
somewhat reasonnable belly. The reason why it was thought as attractive is
that it's the kind of woman that offered the best capacity to bear and feed
a lot of healthy babies, even when food was scarce. The fact that most men
are *still* attracted to big breasts tells how much this way of thinking is
written deep into our genes.
Another problem comes from measuring the body fat. Most electronic devices
(like tanita scales) are highly unreliable. They tend to give especially
high readings with women who have a lot of their fat on the lower body
and/or who have water retention. This means that the people who have the
healthiest locations for their fat, or who have water instead of fat,
actually get the highest readings. The other means of measuring body fat
either need training to be effective (callipers) or are expensive or
unpractical (water tank, autopsy). Training is not really an option, most
doctors already spend a ridiculous amount of time on nutrition (it's around
a week here), spending four days out of that time to train them to properly
use callipers is not really an option.
suz - 30 Apr 2004 13:31 GMT
> The unhealthy
> fat is the androit fat on your belly (that's why my "grab your belly" is
> probably more accurate than BMI), because it's around your organs.

Well, sometimes that doesn't work either.  Back in September, after
doing power yoga for over a year and a half, (which includes an entire
section of the workout that is specifically abs--plus holding all those
poses uses quite a bit of abs), I had abs of steel and was at a great
weight, but I never ever got rid of my belly, which I have been able to
"grab" since the birth of my second child. Even my doctor, who was at
first convinced that it was fat, now believes that it is stretched out
tissue.  I don't think I will ever have my flat stomach again.
Fortunately, I am not an actress or model, and do not have to!

For the last 5 months, I haven't exercised for a variety of
reasons--illnesses, injuries (not yoga related) plus a lot of work and
family duties.  My weight crept up, and my clothes fit funny.  That's
why I am starting to diet and exercise again now.

Based on all your responses to my other post, it seems like I should
mostly focus on getting my exercise back, and then see how many calories
I am eating, and cut down a bit from there.  Using the calculators sure
didn't work for me.  I was absolutely starving.
Rogue - 30 Apr 2004 00:11 GMT
[...]
>>,and it's why BMI doesn't make sense.
>
>for very muscular people yes. I was reacting to the OP that totally
>tossed out the BMI in all cases.
[...]

No, I didn't toss out BMI. I posted an excerpt (I didn't write it) and
asked for opinions from people who read the article.

Just to clarify.

Rogue
janice - 29 Apr 2004 09:41 GMT
>I used to be fat and muscular, and I definitely wasn't a football
>lineman,   (I'm a 56-year-old (well, in two days) woman.)  Now I'm
>just muscular, though less so than I was when I was also fat.

Happy birthday Chris!!
janice
Chris Braun - 29 Apr 2004 14:11 GMT
>>I used to be fat and muscular, and I definitely wasn't a football
>>lineman,   (I'm a 56-year-old (well, in two days) woman.)  Now I'm
>>just muscular, though less so than I was when I was also fat.
>
>Happy birthday Chris!!
>janice

Thanks!  One more day :-).

Chris
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.