Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / April 2004
Is this just bunk?
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Rogue - 28 Apr 2004 21:06 GMT Did anyone read the following article (it's long)? http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1200549,00.html It's entitled "The big fat con story" and is actually an excerpt from The Obesity Myth: Why America's Obsession With Weight Is Hazardous To Your Health by Paul Cosmos.
Some of it made sense and surprised me (the oft-quoted statistic that 300,000 US deaths per year are attributable to obesity did *not* take into account smoking!); other parts seemed a little far-fetched (the author argues perhaps Monicagate could have been avoided if Clinton and Lewinsky weren't ridiculed for their weight).
I'd like to hear any opinions from asders who have read it. I found it fascinating, even though it's making me question my weight loss goals.
Some of the more interesting parts:
--"The doctors and public health officials prosecuting the war on fat would have us believe that who is or isn't fat is a scientific question that can be answered by consulting something as crude as a body mass index chart (the BMI is a simple mathematical formula that puts people of different heights and weights on a single integrated scale). This, like so many other claims at the heart of the case against fat, is false. 'Fat' is a cultural construct. According to the public health establishment's current BMI definitions, Brad Pitt, Michael Jordan and Mel Gibson are all 'overweight', while Russell Crowe, George Clooney and baseball star Sammy Sosa are all 'obese'. According to America's fat police, if your BMI is over 25, then you are 'overweight', full stop. Note also the radical difference between how our culture defines 'fashionable' thinness for men and women. If Jennifer Aniston had the same BMI as her husband Brad Pitt, she would weigh approximately 55lb (nearly four stone) more than she does."
--"A 1996 project undertaken by scientists at the National Centre for Health Statistics and Cornell University analysed the data from dozens of previous studies, involving a total of more than 600,000 subjects with up to a 30-year follow-up. Among non-smoking white men, the lowest mortality rate was found among those with a BMI between 23 and 29, which means that a large majority of the men who lived longest were 'overweight' according to government guidelines. The mortality rate for white men in the supposedly ideal range of 19 to 21 was the same as that for those in the 29 to 31 range (most of whom would be defined now as 'obese'). In regard to non-smoking white women, the study's conclusions were even more striking: the BMI range correlating with the lowest mortality rate was extremely broad, from around 18 to 32, meaning a woman of average height could weigh anywhere within an 80-pound range without seeing any statistically significant change in her risk of premature death."
--"Annual Deaths Attributable To Obesity In The United States, which appeared in the Journal Of The American Medical Association (Jama) in 1999, is the source for the endlessly repeated statistic that overweight causes around 300,000 extra deaths in the US every year. (This 'fact' has been cited in the major media more than 1,700 times in the past two years alone.) Look at these figures more closely. As Glenn Gaesser, a professor at the University of Virginia points out, studies have consistently failed to find any correlation between increasing BMI and higher mortality in people 65 and over, and 78% of the approximately 2.3 million annual deaths in the US occur among people who are at least 65. Thus, 78% of all deaths lack even the beginning of a statistical link with BMI. 'That leaves 500,000 annual deaths in persons under 65 that might be related to BMI,' Gaesser told me. 'These include deaths from every possible cause: motor vehicle and other accidents, homicides, suicides, cigarettes, alcohol, microbial agents, toxic agents, drug abuse, etc, etc. To think that 60% [ie, 300,000] of these deaths are due to body fat is absolutely preposterous'"
--"Among supposedly 'ideal weight' individuals (BMI 18.5 to 24.9), the study observed a mortality rate from cancer of 4.5 deaths for every 1,000 subjects. Among 'overweight' individuals (BMI 25 to 29.9 - a category that currently includes about twice as many adult Americans as the 'ideal weight' cohort), the cancer mortality rate was 4.4 deaths for every 1,000 subjects. In other words, 'overweight' people actually had a lower overall cancer mortality rate than 'ideal weight' individuals."
--"It is true that increasing weight is associated with high blood pressure and certain types of heart disease. But even here there is considerable evidence that this correlation is not necessarily a product of being fat, but rather of losing and then regaining weight. Obese patients who have been put on very low-calorie diets subsequently display much higher rates of congestive heart failure than equally fat people who did not attempt to lose weight in the first place. The biggest evidentiary problem for those who insist there is a strong causal link between increasing weight and heart disease is that deaths from heart disease have been plunging at precisely the same time that obesity rates have been skyrocketing."
Rogue
Heywood Mogroot - 29 Apr 2004 02:25 GMT > --"The doctors and public health officials prosecuting the war on fat > would have us believe that who is or isn't fat is a scientific [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Michael Jordan and Mel Gibson are all 'overweight', while Russell > Crowe, George Clooney and baseball star Sammy Sosa are all 'obese'. Well, BMI works in the fat-a.s case. Sure it has false-positives. So what?
BMI certainly worked for me. I went from 200 (certainly a tad overweight) to 233 over 3 years, but the gain was so gradual I honestly didn't even notice it. Until my size 38" pants got too tight, and pictures of me at a picnic came back. Earlier this year I read in the paper that 233lbs for a 6'1" frame was considered obese, and for my case it was entirely correct.
I've incorporated BMI in my daily statistics plot to help me focus on what is important, getting back down to a 34" waist and dropping the fat % of my body.
> According to America's fat police, if your BMI is over 25, then you > are 'overweight', full stop. Note also the radical difference between > how our culture defines 'fashionable' thinness for men and women. If > Jennifer Aniston had the same BMI as her husband Brad Pitt, she would > weigh approximately 55lb (nearly four stone) more than she does." See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting football linemen I guess.
> first place. The biggest evidentiary problem for those who insist > there is a strong causal link between increasing weight and heart > disease is that deaths from heart disease have been plunging at > precisely the same time that obesity rates have been skyrocketing." Better safe than sorry. For fat a.ses like me, getting under 27 BMI seems like a good health move. YMMV, LOL.
Chris Braun - 29 Apr 2004 02:49 GMT >See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting >football linemen I guess. I used to be fat and muscular, and I definitely wasn't a football lineman, (I'm a 56-year-old (well, in two days) woman.) Now I'm just muscular, though less so than I was when I was also fat.
There are many people who are fat as well as muscular. Muscle and fat are not mutually exclusive. Many world class powerlifters are quite fat as well as exceptionally muscular. Look around the free weight section of any gym and you'll see fat muscular people. Building muscle doesn't make one lose fat. In fact, people who do serious strength training tend to add fat as well as muscle. That's why bodybuilders -- who are focused on appearance, rather than just strength for its own sake -- go through complex cycles of building and cutting.
Chris 262/153/ (145-150)
Heywood Mogroot - 29 Apr 2004 07:09 GMT > >See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting > >football linemen I guess. > > I used to be fat and muscular, and I definitely wasn't a football > lineman, (I'm a 56-year-old (well, in two days) woman.) Now I'm > just muscular, though less so than I was when I was also fat. by fat I mean fat like seriously obese, eg BMI of over 32 if you subtracted all the extra muscle.
> There are many people who are fat as well as muscular. Muscle and fat > are not mutually exclusive. But people who go to the gym religiously tend to have their nutrition sorted out. Part of the culture, right?
> Many world class powerlifters are quite > fat as well as exceptionally muscular. and sumo wrestlers I suppose...
You're correct that there are many fat & muscular people in the gym, but I bet most of them have a BF% under 20%. Whether or not the % is more important than the absolute poundage I don't know.
Chris Braun - 29 Apr 2004 14:10 GMT >> >See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting >> >football linemen I guess. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >by fat I mean fat like seriously obese, eg BMI of over 32 if you >subtracted all the extra muscle. Well, "subtracted all the extra muscle" is kind of the key here (whatever "extra" means -- above the average?), and it's why BMI doesn't make sense. What you're talking about, in effect, is a measurement of bodyfat percentage, which is a much more valid way of determining if someone is too fat. But when I weighed 262, even with the muscle (and I had plenty; I was a state champion powerlifter), I still had far too much bodyfat.
>> There are many people who are fat as well as muscular. Muscle and fat >> are not mutually exclusive. > >But people who go to the gym religiously tend to have their nutrition >sorted out. Part of the culture, right? Not everyone. Lots of people (guys, particularly) are more into being strong than into overall fitness.
>> Many world class powerlifters are quite >> fat as well as exceptionally muscular. > >and sumo wrestlers I suppose... No doubt. Also those Greco-Roman guys we saw in the last Olympics.
>You're correct that there are many fat & muscular people in the gym, >but I bet most of them have a BF% under 20%. Whether or not the % is >more important than the absolute poundage I don't know. If their BF% is under 20%, I don't think "fat" is the right adjective -- they are just heavy and muscular. (My Olympic lifting coach is 5'10", 240 lbs., 6% bodyfat. No one who has seen him would ever call him fat.) I don't think there's any question that BF% is what's important than poundage. I don't think there's a health downside to having more muscle, or to having heavier bones or a larger frame, all of which contribute to poundage.
But there are plenty of people in the gym -- and plenty of competitive strength athletes -- with BF% > 20.
Chris
Heywood Mogroot - 29 Apr 2004 20:48 GMT > >> >See above. I don't see too many fat muscular people, excepting > >> >football linemen I guess. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Well, "subtracted all the extra muscle" is kind of the key here > (whatever "extra" means -- above the average?) yes.
>,and it's why BMI doesn't make sense. for very muscular people yes. I was reacting to the OP that totally tossed out the BMI in all cases. Just because BMI gives false positives for obesity is no reason to go buy another bag of oreos since the BMI is wrong for some football player.
> What you're talking about, in effect, is a > measurement of bodyfat percentage, which is a much more valid way of > determining if someone is too fat. But when I weighed 262, even with > the muscle (and I had plenty; I was a state champion powerlifter), I > still had far too much bodyfat. I would posit there aren't too many, in the scheme of things, state champion powerlifters in this world.
My point is just that BMI is a good first-step test for relatively ignorant mass audiences, since people like me can easily look up the BMI from a table just knowing their height and weight.
> >> There are many people who are fat as well as muscular. Muscle and fat > >> are not mutually exclusive. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not everyone. Lots of people (guys, particularly) are more into being > strong than into overall fitness. Well, then they're active idiots and having the BMI more wrong for them isn't going to change anything for them.
> >> Many world class powerlifters are quite > >> fat as well as exceptionally muscular. > > > >and sumo wrestlers I suppose... > > No doubt. Also those Greco-Roman guys we saw in the last Olympics. Would you agree the BMI is a good first-pass test for most people though?
> >You're correct that there are many fat & muscular people in the gym, > >but I bet most of them have a BF% under 20%. Whether or not the % is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > having more muscle, or to having heavier bones or a larger frame, all > of which contribute to poundage. I meant fat poundage . . . eg is it fat % or fat pounds that is unhealthy?
> But there are plenty of people in the gym -- and plenty of competitive > strength athletes -- with BF% > 20. They exist, but they are the exceptions. 'course, I live in California.
Lictor - 29 Apr 2004 22:33 GMT > for very muscular people yes. I was reacting to the OP that totally > tossed out the BMI in all cases. Just because BMI gives false > positives for obesity is no reason to go buy another bag of oreos > since the BMI is wrong for some football player. The problem is that you have doctor who thought your ideal BMI is not anywhere in the normal range, but right in the middle of it. For instance, I have been told by doctors that my ideal weight should be 73kg for 1.82m (BMI=22). That's complete bullshit. With my body configuration, there is no way I can reach that weight without looking ill. My normal self-maintained weight (before gaining the extra fat and doing diets) was 80kg, and back then I had doctors telling me I should be losing weight because it was too high - all that despite a body fat low enough to show a six-pack.With the added age, I would look fine with around 85kg, which is already borderline overweight. My father's self maintained BMI is around 26-27, and he never did any weight lifting or bodybuilding (but he does a pretty physical work). It's not just wrong for football players. It's wrong for a lot of people who are naturally in the 25-27 range without having excessive body weight. That's the very range where weight is not related to negative health impact.
Heywood Mogroot - 30 Apr 2004 06:05 GMT > > for very muscular people yes. I was reacting to the OP that totally > > tossed out the BMI in all cases. Just because BMI gives false [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have been told by doctors that my ideal weight should be 73kg for 1.82m > (BMI=22). yup, that's a problem :)
190 for me (6' 1") is borderline overweight (25.1), but a BMI of 22 would make me a beanpole again...
>That's complete bullshit. With my body configuration, there is no > way I can reach that weight without looking ill. My normal self-maintained [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are naturally in the 25-27 range without having excessive body weight. > That's the very range where weight is not related to negative health impact. false positives aren't that big a deal for such a simple metric. I'm surprised it works as well as it does.
Lictor - 30 Apr 2004 08:18 GMT "Heywood Mogroot" <imouttahere@mac.com> wrote in message
> false positives aren't that big a deal for such a simple metric. I'm > surprised it works as well as it does. They're not a problem in the hand of intelligent people. They're a problem in the hand of idiots. The problem is that many doctors (especially school doctors) and insurance companies do qualify in the later category. Some bodybuilders are refused health insurance just because their BMI say they're obese. Some doctors fail to understand that the slightly overweight category does not pack added health risk, especially if most of the fat is in the lower body. When you know that around 85% of the diets prescribed by a doctor fail long term, and that many will result in a weight above the starting value (yo-yo effect), forcing people who do not need it on a diet is a very serious matter. Likewise, a somewhat high BMI (25-28) is a survival advantage for old people, past 60, those with that kind of BMI have the highest survival chance of all BMI groups - at an age when malnutrition and dehydratation become major problems, that extra fat and the water it comes with are a real life insurance. Yet, many doctors will put these on a diet (which can be very dangerous to old people with the dehydratation and risk of malnutrition it comes with). It's also a problem when fashion magazine use BMI as a score of how fashionable you are.
Chris Braun - 30 Apr 2004 01:58 GMT >Would you agree the BMI is a good first-pass test for most people >though? Well, to some extent, maybe. BMI is no different than the old height/weight charts that have fallen out of favor; it just distills the chart into an equation. In fact, the charts that I remember used to have different values for small, medium, and large frame, so they were at least taking weight of the person's bones into account.
But honestly I think most people can tell if they're too fat. That seems to be an adequate first-pass test.
>I meant fat poundage . . . eg is it fat % or fat pounds that is >unhealthy? Dunno, but everything I see seems to focus on fat %. I don't know that I've ever really heard a suggestion that fat pounds is the main cause for concern, but it's a valid question.
Chris
Lictor - 30 Apr 2004 08:34 GMT > Would you agree the BMI is a good first-pass test for most people > though? The problem comes from using the BMI as the main statistical tool to assess the impact of obesity. As a first-pass test, there are others that work just as well. The "can you grab your belly in your hand" is as good a test as BMI calculation. :p It just sounds a lot less scientific.
> I meant fat poundage . . . eg is it fat % or fat pounds that is unhealthy?
Not really. First, you would have to define two values, for men and women - otherwise you will either include most women or exclude most men. Where you put the fat is more important than the total amount of fat. The unhealthy fat is the androit fat on your belly (that's why my "grab your belly" is probably more accurate than BMI), because it's around your organs. Purely gynoid fat (buttocks, legs) is not unhealthy unless you really have a *lot* of it (then it strains the joints). The traditionnal prehistoric venus is the woman with a *very* large butt and thighs and large breasts, but with a somewhat reasonnable belly. The reason why it was thought as attractive is that it's the kind of woman that offered the best capacity to bear and feed a lot of healthy babies, even when food was scarce. The fact that most men are *still* attracted to big breasts tells how much this way of thinking is written deep into our genes. Another problem comes from measuring the body fat. Most electronic devices (like tanita scales) are highly unreliable. They tend to give especially high readings with women who have a lot of their fat on the lower body and/or who have water retention. This means that the people who have the healthiest locations for their fat, or who have water instead of fat, actually get the highest readings. The other means of measuring body fat either need training to be effective (callipers) or are expensive or unpractical (water tank, autopsy). Training is not really an option, most doctors already spend a ridiculous amount of time on nutrition (it's around a week here), spending four days out of that time to train them to properly use callipers is not really an option.
suz - 30 Apr 2004 13:31 GMT > The unhealthy > fat is the androit fat on your belly (that's why my "grab your belly" is > probably more accurate than BMI), because it's around your organs. Well, sometimes that doesn't work either. Back in September, after doing power yoga for over a year and a half, (which includes an entire section of the workout that is specifically abs--plus holding all those poses uses quite a bit of abs), I had abs of steel and was at a great weight, but I never ever got rid of my belly, which I have been able to "grab" since the birth of my second child. Even my doctor, who was at first convinced that it was fat, now believes that it is stretched out tissue. I don't think I will ever have my flat stomach again. Fortunately, I am not an actress or model, and do not have to!
For the last 5 months, I haven't exercised for a variety of reasons--illnesses, injuries (not yoga related) plus a lot of work and family duties. My weight crept up, and my clothes fit funny. That's why I am starting to diet and exercise again now.
Based on all your responses to my other post, it seems like I should mostly focus on getting my exercise back, and then see how many calories I am eating, and cut down a bit from there. Using the calculators sure didn't work for me. I was absolutely starving.
Rogue - 30 Apr 2004 00:11 GMT [...]
>>,and it's why BMI doesn't make sense. > >for very muscular people yes. I was reacting to the OP that totally >tossed out the BMI in all cases. [...]
No, I didn't toss out BMI. I posted an excerpt (I didn't write it) and asked for opinions from people who read the article.
Just to clarify.
Rogue
janice - 29 Apr 2004 09:41 GMT >I used to be fat and muscular, and I definitely wasn't a football >lineman, (I'm a 56-year-old (well, in two days) woman.) Now I'm >just muscular, though less so than I was when I was also fat. Happy birthday Chris!! janice
Chris Braun - 29 Apr 2004 14:11 GMT >>I used to be fat and muscular, and I definitely wasn't a football >>lineman, (I'm a 56-year-old (well, in two days) woman.) Now I'm >>just muscular, though less so than I was when I was also fat. > >Happy birthday Chris!! >janice Thanks! One more day :-).
Chris
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