"Steve" <nospam@please.reply.to.group.thanks.com> wrote in message
> I agree with you about the cereal and milk though :)
>
> Some combinations are just classics :)
>
> Steve
I can't handle milk... I gave it up 5 yrs ago. It is probably a good
thing... as I was addicted to cereal and milk and would eat HUGE jethro
bowls of it. It was one of the things I used to binge on.
> >>>Someone at work who has been on several of the most popular diets told
> >>>me that non-fat yogurt helps you lose weight. Has anyone else heard of
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> No offense to anyone but I take any information from "atkins" with a
> grain of salt.
if you'd read the link you would have seen the research wasn't from
"atkins".
> Low carbing may work, but I have read several scientists who study
> ketogenic diets state that Atkins did not understand the science behind
> it and that his explanations of it are totally wrong.
I think it's safe to say that at this point Atkins *does* work, at
least for many people.
I'm not following it for a mixture of reasons; a) I don't want to
alter my eating habits too much from what I can conveniently sustain
once at target weight, b) I'm losing fine (2lbs/week for now 3+
months) on my diet, c) I don't want to lose too fast, to avoid loose
skin, d) the science behind any harmful effects of long-term ketogenic
diets isn't in yet, and I don't want to play the guinea pig. And e)
I'm a lazy git and staying in ketosis or finding and keeping to the
CCLL or whatever is just too much accounting.
Having said that, I take all scientific criticisms of Atkins with a
grain of salt because: a) results trumps theory and b) the critics
have been proved wrong repeatedly for the past 30 years.
> > > > Someone at work who has been on several of the most popular diets told
> > > > me that non-fat yogurt helps you lose weight. Has anyone else heard of
> > > > this before?
Yogurt is fermented with acidophilus. That's a beneficial bacteria
that naturally grows in the intestines. Non-fat, full-fat, or whatever
adding more beneficial bacteria should be a good idea.
> Low carbing may work
Low carbing does work for most people. No plan works for everyone and
sure enough low carbing doesn't work for everyone. But it does work
for most.
> but I have read several scientists who study ketogenic diets state
> that Atkins did not understand the science behind it
Atkins designed a process that works. So what that he never
understood why? He was a practicing physician not a scientist. The
guy that invented gunpowder didn't understand the science behind
that either, with an equal so what. Did guns not work before the
discovery of analytical chemistry? Of course they did!
There are some interesting consequences to his failure to understand
the underlying science. If he'd remembered his undergrad biocchem,
he would have spent more time discussing the carb-to-fat ratio and
its effects. It's part of why staying at 20 works so poorly for so
many. If he'd read more about carb intake and thyroid T3 output,
he also would have pushed OWL more. He never did learn why OWL
works better for more, and by the last decade of his life he'd
forgotten his early data and had started advocating staying on
Induction in the face of the underlying science.
> and that his explanations of it are totally wrong.
I'm sure the guy who invented gunpowder got the explanation wrong.
That doesn't mean that guns failed to work before the invention of
analytical chemistry.
If you want to raise objections to Atkins, try something other than
irrelevant ad homein points.
That T Woman - 20 May 2004 20:11 GMT
> > > > > Someone at work who has been on several of the most popular diets told
> > > > > me that non-fat yogurt helps you lose weight. Has anyone else heard of
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> If you want to raise objections to Atkins, try something other than
> irrelevant ad homein points.
OWL? What does that acronym stand for?
Tonia
SnugBear - 21 May 2004 02:48 GMT
> OWL? What does that acronym stand for?
Older & Wiser Lutheran

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Doug Freyburger - 21 May 2004 18:27 GMT
> OWL? What does that acronym stand for?
Ongoing Weight Loss. The single most important concept of the
Atkins process is that each person has a specific level of carb
intake that is ideal to produce the quickest fat loss and/or
that results in the fewest stalls during loss. The acronym for
that level is CCLL Critical Carbohydrate Level for Losing and
OWL is the phase of the 4-phase Atkins core process where CCLL
is first learned and then used.
That T Woman - 21 May 2004 23:58 GMT
Thanks
> > OWL? What does that acronym stand for?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> OWL is the phase of the 4-phase Atkins core process where CCLL
> is first learned and then used.
Steve - 20 May 2004 20:27 GMT
>>but I have read several scientists who study ketogenic diets state
>>that Atkins did not understand the science behind it
>
> Atkins designed a process that works. So what that he never
> understood why?
If you don't understand why a process works it becomes harder to avoid
making mistakes in applying that process or in optimizing that process.
The quality of your results is at the mercy of trial and error.
With medicine that means your mistakes are made on people.
> If you want to raise objections to Atkins, try something other than
> irrelevant ad homein points.
I pointed out that Atkins' deliniation about how his dieting system
works are scientifically wrong.
That is a fact, not a personal insult, and not an emotional appeal.
See "ad hominem"
at:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Ad+Hominem&x=0&y=0

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Doug Freyburger - 21 May 2004 18:25 GMT
> > > but I have read several scientists who study ketogenic diets state
> > > that Atkins did not understand the science behind it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If you don't understand why a process works it becomes harder to avoid
> making mistakes in applying that process or in optimizing that process.
If you don't understand why a process works, you need to depend on
tabular data to be able to improve that process. Dr A did exactly
that until 1972.
There are both good and bad features of depending on the raw data
because you lack understanding. The good feature is the data can
lead you to a better end result than today's understanding can for
the simple reason that there's always more to learn and understanding
is limited, but the data reflects the actual world's reactions.
> The quality of your results is at the mercy of trial and error.
That's the bad feature. With understanding you can have a very
good idea of what to try next (refeeds and so on depend on
understanding). Even better with understanding you can reach the
"wait a minute, this data doesn't make sense according to the
theory" result that indicates a discovery being made. Without
understanding all you can do is try stuff and see what the data
says.
Early on Dr A built both Induction and OWL based on his tabular
data. Later on Dr A stopped gathering tabular data and his
gradually increasing stress on Induction reflects that.
> With medicine that means your mistakes are made on people.
When devising a weight loss system, the worst case scenario is the
test subjects gaining weight and the experiment gets terminated.
It's not heart transplant territory when it comes to risks.
Carol Frilegh - 21 May 2004 00:37 GMT
> > > > > Someone at work who has been on several of the most popular diets told
> > > > > me that non-fat yogurt helps you lose weight. Has anyone else heard of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that naturally grows in the intestines. Non-fat, full-fat, or whatever
> adding more beneficial bacteria should be a good idea.
I must use home incubated yogurt to get rid of the lactose and have
made it with everything from skim milk to whipping cream and currently
use 2% Goat's Milk as the protein in Goat's Milk is easier to digect
than that of Cow's Milk. Adding a little honey cuts the tart flavor.
I use conventional plain yogurt as a 'starter" to get the incubation
process going.

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