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Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / May 2004Binge-eating is seen as eating disorder
Binge-eating is seen as eating disorder It is recognized as growing health problem in U.S. Thursday, May 20, 2004 By SUE VORENBERG SCRIPPS HOWARD NEWS SERVICE "Helen" doesn't mind that she hasn't eaten chocolate in 21 years. In fact, the longtime member of Overeaters Anonymous says she hasn't even missed it, which is the real miracle. Helen, 66, who asked that her real name not be used, is thin now, but she remembers the old days. She used to eat jelly beans and Snickers bars in bed until she passed out from insulin shock. Her obsession with food consumed her. "I just ate all the time, and if I wasn't eating I was thinking about how to get more food," she said, her blue eyes mirroring the intensity of her addiction. "I didn't go to a show to see a movie. I went to have license to eat. I would even plan my binges. I would line food around my bed so I could eat until I passed out." Helen's symptoms are typical of a newly recognized disease called binge-eating disorder, although she calls herself a compulsive overeater. Her disease is one of three eating disorders -- anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa are the others -- that are on the rise across the United States, said Joel Yager, a University of New Mexico psychiatry professor who specializes in eating disorders. "There has been a definite rise in anorexia and bulimia every year since the 1950s," Yager said. "That may have to do with society's preoccupation with slimness, as fashion models and actresses have gotten slimmer on TV and in magazines. That creates a lot of social peer pressure to be an unhealthy low weight." Binge-eating disorder -- which is diagnosed in about 70 percent of people more than 100 pounds overweight -- is also rising across the United States in women and men. It is part of the obesity epidemic, caused by underlying mental disorders complicated by an overabundance of unhealthy food and poor exercise habits, Yager said. In Helen's case, binge-eating disorder left her susceptible to Type 2 diabetes and joint problems. She also had frequent memory loss after her food binges, she said. She bottomed out in 1983, as a nursing student in California. Her 5-foot-6 frame had swelled to 215 pounds, 85 more than her suggested ideal weight of 130. The root of Helen's disease is very similar to anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa, both of which are associated with unhealthy weight loss. Anorexics starve themselves to be thin and face a host of health problems, including bone loss, heart failure and death. Bulimics binge on food, but then force themselves to vomit, creating health problems such as heart failure, ulcers and malnutrition, Yager said. cross posts snipped > Binge-eating is seen as eating disorder > It is recognized as growing health problem in U.S. > > Thursday, May 20, 2004 > Helen's symptoms are typical of a newly recognized disease called > binge-eating disorder, although she calls herself a compulsive overeater. They're a little slow on the draw. The book I have - Overcoming Binge Eating - is copyrighted in 1995 and lists Binge Eating Disorder as an eating disorder. Jenn >cross posts snipped >> Binge-eating is seen as eating disorder [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Jenn Yes, but to be fair, for many years anorexia and bulimia were seen as eating disorders, but binge eating went unrecognised. I still suspect that most of the medical profession find it far harder to comprehend than the first two. janice I've always thought there was something wrong with me since I never knew binge disorder was a problem when I was growing up. "janice" > Yes, but to be fair, for many years anorexia and bulimia were seen as > eating disorders, but binge eating went unrecognised. I still suspect > that most of the medical profession find it far harder to comprehend > than the first two. > > janice Well honey, there is something wrong with you, but I wasn't referring to your diet or eating habits. (j/k - I couldn't resist such an opening...) Jenn feeling a bit spunky tonight > I've always thought there was something wrong with me since I never knew > binge disorder was a problem when I was growing up. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > janice hardy har har :) > Well honey, there is something wrong with you, but I wasn't referring to > your diet or eating habits. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Jenn > feeling a bit spunky tonight Well, I knew something was wrong but I thought I was the only person in the world who'd ever behaved like this. It was a couple of decades before I saw mention of it as "compulsive eating" and realised other people did it too. janice >I've always thought there was something wrong with me since I never knew >binge disorder was a problem when I was growing up. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> janice > Binge-eating is seen as eating disorder no kidding! > "Helen" doesn't mind that she hasn't eaten chocolate in 21 years. I do not mind that I have not eaten any sweets in almost a year. > In fact, the longtime member of Overeaters Anonymous says she hasn't even > missed it, which is the real miracle. I am not missing that sh.t either. > Helen, 66, who asked that her real name not be used, is thin now, but she > remembers the old days. Looks like Helen found what works so well! Which is to not put junk food in the mouth. i > > Binge-eating is seen as eating disorder > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > i Your constant remedy for eating disorders has been "to just quit doing it". If only it were that easy. Your attitude shows you know absolutely nothing about the disorders or addictions. Many in the group have had problems with binge eating. Fortunately for many of us we were able to overcome the problem - for others it's a constant battle. I would hope you have the decency to see the difference and try to show support for these people instead of brushing it off as something that's easily overcome. I've seen the results of addiction and know it's not always possible for people to overcome them even when they know it's not best for them. I had a very dear family member who was an alcoholic. He had everything in the world to live for but he couldn't beat the addiction. He literally drank himself to death. He quit his job, stocked his house with alcohol and went on a drinking binge until he went into a coma and died. As hard as we tried we just weren't able to help him overcome his addiction. Your flippant attitude toward addictions and eating disorders is not very supportive. My mother always said "If you don't have anything nice to say - keep your damn mouth shut". >> In article <1YK8NDJU38128.0461342593@Gilgamesh-Frog.org>, Leslie DiMaggio > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > supportive. My mother always said "If you don't have anything nice to say - > keep your damn mouth shut". Numerous people combat addictions by giving up one day. My father in law was a heavy smoker until 20 years ago, and then he quit (at insistence of his doctor). Saying that it is impossible is disingenious. i Ignoramus wrote: >Numerous people combat addictions by giving up one day. > >My father in law was a heavy smoker until 20 years ago, and then he >quit (at insistence of his doctor). > >Saying that it is impossible is disingenious. She didn't say "it is impossible." She said, and I quote precisely, "it's not always possible." Even though I understand where *you* are coming from, the difference between those two phrases is a significant one. beeswing > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > She didn't say "it is impossible." She said, and I quote precisely, "it's not > always possible." I agree that some people are not able to give up their addiction. What remains to be seen is, are such people able to quit their addiction in some other way? Is there some solution available to them? I do not know. But, saying that giving up an addiction entirely is not the answer, flies in the face of people for whom it is an answer. > Even though I understand where *you* are coming from, the difference between > those two phrases is a significant one. Yes, it is. i >I agree that some people are not able to give up their addiction. What >remains to be seen is, are such people able to quit their addiction in >some other way? Is there some solution available to them? I do not know. > >But, saying that giving up an addiction entirely is not the answer, >flies in the face of people for whom it is an answer. Food is a bit different from alcohol or cigarettes, though, because as far as I know giving up food is not an option for most people. janice >>I agree that some people are not able to give up their addiction. What >>remains to be seen is, are such people able to quit their addiction in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Food is a bit different from alcohol or cigarettes, though, because as > far as I know giving up food is not an option for most people. I agree that it is impossible to avoid food. But, it is possible to avoid some foods. According to http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1157072,00.html ``One of the common problems highlighted by bulimics is that once they start eating, they can't stop. And while any foods may be tempting, experience shows that most bulimics gravitate towards sugary and starchy carbohydrates. This carb-fest will generally send blood-sugar levels skyrocketing and there is evidence that this surge in the system has the potential to skew the delicate biochemistry of the brain. This has repercussions for both appetite and mood.'' it is not impossible to avoid those foods, and choose carbohydrates that are low in glycemic index and are hard to overeat (due to already being bulky, for example). i > it is not impossible to avoid those foods I think taht you left out a few words. It's not impossible *FOR YOU* to avoid those foods.  Signaturejmk in NC >> it is not impossible to avoid those foods > > I think taht you left out a few words. It's not impossible *FOR YOU* to > avoid those foods. I agree. It is possible for me as well as for numerous other people. In other words, you are suggesting that it is impossible for some people, right? What do you mean by impossible? Do you mean that they cannot avoid the temptation, or do you mean that they would suffer health damage if they were deprived of such foods? What if they were locked up in a hypothetical prison, and given access to other foods, except those foods that trigger binges. Normal exercise etc would be available. Would such people die or suffer damage to their health, in your opinion? Regardless of whether all people can give them up, those foods are what trigger binging, according to the article I mentioned. i > In other words, you are suggesting that it is impossible for some > people, right? What do you mean by impossible? Do you mean that they [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > exercise etc would be available. Would such people die or suffer > damage to their health, in your opinion? This is exactly why inpatient treatment for bulimia does not have a great success rate. It's not the food, it's the diet and restriction. They'll comply while in treatment and go right back when out in the real world again. > Regardless of whether all people can give them up, those foods are > what trigger binging, according to the article I mentioned. > > i And according to numerous other studies, restricting foods, extreme, and/or severe dieting also trigger binges. >> In other words, you are suggesting that it is impossible for some >> people, right? What do you mean by impossible? Do you mean that they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > comply while in treatment and go right back when out in the real world > again. But they don't suffer health damage from not eating their binge foods, right? I wanted to carify what jmk meant by "impossible" when she said that itw as impossible for some people to give up the foods that they binge on. >> Regardless of whether all people can give them up, those foods are >> what trigger binging, according to the article I mentioned. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And according to numerous other studies, restricting foods, extreme, and/or > severe dieting also trigger binges. Severe dieting is a bad idea... I am glad that we agree here. As for restricting foods, do you think that it matters which foods are restricted? i > > This is exactly why inpatient treatment for bulimia does not have a great > > success rate. It's not the food, it's the diet and restriction. They'll [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that itw as impossible for some people to give up the foods that they > binge on. Of course they don't suffer physical health damage from not eating their binge foods. That doesn't necessarily make it possible for them to give it up since suffering health damage is only one aspect of a whole picture. > >> Regardless of whether all people can give them up, those foods are > >> what trigger binging, according to the article I mentioned. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > i Nope. Not if the restriction is due solely to "I can't eat this because it is not on my weight loss diet." Again, we're talking about those who actually have an eating disorder, not the general population. For some binge eaters, the binge food is a moving target. You are working on the incorrect assumption that binges are only on junk food. Jenn >Of course they don't suffer physical health damage from not eating their >binge foods. That doesn't necessarily make it possible for them to give it >up since suffering health damage is only one aspect of a whole picture. Is it impossible? Or merely very, very difficult? Because the two aren't the same. beeswing > >Of course they don't suffer physical health damage from not eating their > >binge foods. That doesn't necessarily make it possible for them to give it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > beeswing Well, it depends on the nature of the binge. If it's triggered by a food or in cases where the binge is consistently on the same foods and only those foods, then it would be possible, but probably very, very difficult. If the binge is triggered by other factors like strict dieting, then the binge food is a moving target and would probably be impossible to give up. If anything, giving up the food makes it more likely to be a binge food. Just like the one-size-fits-all approach doesn't work for dieting, it doesn't work for binge eating. There are a complex myriad of reasons why different people binge. What began the cycle for some in their teen years is not what is maintaining it in their 20's, etc. >Well, it depends on the nature of the binge. If it's triggered by a food or >in cases where the binge is consistently on the same foods and only those [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >different people binge. What began the cycle for some in their teen years >is not what is maintaining it in their 20's, etc. I choose not to accept the word "impossible." I could be wrong, but on the other hand, it works to my advantage. And yes, I've personally dealt *successfully* with compulsive behavior -- so don't say I don't understand. I may not understand what makes each individual person tick, but I do understand the dynamics involved. A quote from Richard Bach, author of "Jonathan Livingston Seagull": "Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours." I was thinking along these lines as I drove home from work today. Imagine all other things are equal. You have one person who assumes that her eating is WITHIN her control. You have another person who assumes that her eating is OUTSIDE of her control. The first one may well be wrong, and the second one may well be right. But which of the two is more likely to succeed in losing weight, the person who feels in control, or the person who feels they have no control? And which one of the two would you prefer to be? So much of life is a choice, if you let it be. There's such a huge difference between difficult and impossible, but you have to be willing to see it. And maybe you are right, and maybe it isn't enough to simply believe you can take control. But which of the two of us is likely to be happier? And which of the two of us is more likely to be successful? beeswing >> Severe dieting is a bad idea... I am glad that we agree here. As for >> restricting foods, do you think that it matters which foods are >> restricted? >Nope. Not if the restriction is due solely to "I can't eat this because it >is not on my weight loss diet." Again, we're talking about those who >actually have an eating disorder, not the general population. This reminds me of a conversation I had this evening. I have a very close friend whose mother (age 81) has moved in with her recently due to myriad health problems, including celiac disease, diverticulitis, kidney failure (she has begun dialysis), and past bladder cancer. She has been placed under an ever-growing list of dietary restrictions: no wheat, no dairy, no seeds/nuts, no added salt, restricted potassium, no more than 6 cups of fluid per day, no overly-spiced foods -- and probably more that I've forgotten. My friend tells me her mother is now having really severe cravings for foods she never used to eat much anyway, just because they're forbidden. My friend says her mother will get up at night and go to the kitchen to eat things she shouldn't have, even though she suffers sometimes-severe discomfort after eating it. Chris > >> it is not impossible to avoid those foods > > > > I think taht you left out a few words. It's not impossible *FOR YOU* to > > avoid those foods. > > I agree. It is possible for me as well as for numerous other people. Since when did you, ignorant, suffer from bingeing? NEVER, that's when! Idiot! Martha >According to > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >that are low in glycemic index and are hard to overeat (due to already >being bulky, for example). I can't comment on bulimics because this is not a behaviour I've even remotely contemplated. However, for me bingeing consists largely of the foods I know I'll be forced to limit when I'm back on track if I want to lose weight - because they're calorie dense. I see this more as the binge being the other side of the coin to the diet, rather than being drawn towards these foods because of an addiction. It's a fine line, though, and I can't be completely sure of the reasons for going for these foods. janice >>According to >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > line, though, and I can't be completely sure of the reasons for going > for these foods. What foods are those Janice? Just curious. Also, if I was in your shoes, I would try to take some glucose level measurements around a binge to see if anything unusual happens. Here in the US, glucose meters are very affordable. i >> I can't comment on bulimics because this is not a behaviour I've even >> remotely contemplated. However, for me bingeing consists largely of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >glucose level measurements around a binge to see if anything unusual >happens. Here in the US, glucose meters are very affordable. Well, things I love but can't afford the calories if I want to lose weight. Therefore mainly fats, refined carbs, and some sugary foods. Examples, butter, cream, cakes, puddings, pastries, dried fruit. Some sweets and chocolates but not in a huge way. The more I go without these things the more I seem to indulge in them when I fall off the wagon. I can go for 6 or 7 months without these foods, but if I fall then the binge behaviour comes right back. I would guess my blood sugar goes right up during a binge, and falls if I stop eating for a while, resulting in the unpleasant symptoms that this causes. However, there are periods when I don't even let myself get hungry I just keep topping up before this gets a chance to happen. janice > >>According to > >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > i And you are now an expert on bulemia, ignorant? Bullshit. Martha > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > i You're an idiot. Why don't you keep your mouth shut and learn something for once in your life? Martha > >> In article <1YK8NDJU38128.0461342593@Gilgamesh-Frog.org>, Leslie DiMaggio > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Saying that it is impossible is disingenious. I don't believe I said it was impossible. I simply said many people are never able to overcome their addictions regardless of how much they try. Unfortunately your simplistic 'just do it' approach doesn't work for everyone but you seem to think it should. Hell - why don't you teach your approach to all those poor professionals that have been struggling for years to find the cure for addictions. > i :..................... Hell - why don't you teach your : approach to all those poor professionals that have been struggling for years : to find the cure for addictions. believe me, many try.............................. > > Your constant remedy for eating disorders has been "to just quit doing it". > > If only it were that easy. Your attitude shows you know absolutely nothing [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > My father in law was a heavy smoker until 20 years ago, and then he > quit (at insistence of his doctor). How many cigarettes did he need daily to stay alive? People with a real binge eating disorder still need to eat food every day. > Saying that it is impossible is disingenious. > > i "Not always possible" were the exact words Beverly used. That phrase is not identical to impossible. Semantics aside, there isn't a lot of clinical data to back up the notion that food is addictive though it appears that the mechanisms that drive binge eating (in binge eating disorder) may be similar to those driving alcohol or drug abuse. (from the Fairburn book) This distinguishes binge eating disorder from bulimia or anorexia, the other two eating disorders that involve binge eating. Not to speak for Beverly, but I believe the point she was trying to make is that your constant "just stop doing it" approach makes you appear like a sanctimonious and arrogant person who offers little help to people looking for support because of the way you "brush off" and belittle the difficulties faced by people. It's amazing the number of different people in this group who have repeatedly told you this and yet you still don't get it. > > > Your constant remedy for eating disorders has been "to just quit doing > it". [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > faced by people. It's amazing the number of different people in this group > who have repeatedly told you this and yet you still don't get it. I couldn't have said it any better !! I don't think he'll ever get it. In 'Ig's world' everything is possible if you 'just do it'. We can all lose weight if we quit eating at a specific time in the evening and pack our lunch in a specific size plastic container. I usually ignore most of his posts but it's been a tough day for me. Time for me to go to bed..... Hi Beverly... I tried to email you, but got bounced. Can you email me? Thanks! perpleglow(at)comcast(dot)net :) > > > > Your constant remedy for eating disorders has been "to just quit doing > > it". [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > I usually ignore most of his posts but it's been a tough day for me. Time > for me to go to bed..... Just emailed you the real one..... Beverly > Hi Beverly... I tried to email you, but got bounced. Can you email me? > Thanks! [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > I usually ignore most of his posts but it's been a tough day for me. Time > > for me to go to bed..... >> > > Your constant remedy for eating disorders has been "to just quit doing >> it". [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > eating at a specific time in the evening and pack our lunch in a > specific size plastic container. What are you trying to say? If you can "just do" something, then yes it is possible for you to do it! i >> > Your constant remedy for eating disorders has been "to just quit doing > it". [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > How many cigarettes did he need daily to stay alive? People with a real > binge eating disorder still need to eat food every day. Good point. But they do not need to eat foods that they binge on. http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-174275.html ``The National Institute for Clinical Excellence (Nice) here in the UK recently published a report which stressed the role of psychological therapies in the treatment of eating disorders such as bulimia. However, while conventional wisdom dictates that the condition is a mental disorder, mounting evidence suggests that it may in fact be rooted in more bodily functions. In particular, studies suggest that the food binging typified in the actions of bulimics may be manifestations of biochemical processes gone awry and that a change in diet can put pay to these symptoms. One of the common problems highlighted by bulimics is that once they start eating, they can't stop. And while any foods may be tempting, experience shows that most bulimics gravitate towards sugary and starchy carbohydrates. This carb-fest will generally send blood-sugar levels skyrocketing and there is evidence that this surge in the system has the potential to skew the delicate biochemistry of the brain. This has repercussions for both appetite and mood. In one study published in the journal Biological Psychiatry, an injection of sugar was found to provoke feelings such as depression and anxiety in a group of bulimic women, while a placebo injection did not. Interestingly, the women subjected to the real sugar felt more inclined to binge. The precise biochemical mechanism responsible for this reaction is unknown. Another hallmark symptom of bulimia is the purging of food from the body through vomiting or using laxatives. A study published in the International Journal of Eating Disorders found that this purging can also lead to sub-normal levels of blood sugar in the body. The relevance of this is that when blood-sugar levels are low, the body craves carbohydrate foods, and usually plenty of them. Both of these reports suggest that those suffering from bulimia can be caught up in a vicious circle fuelled by highs and lows of blood sugar. In practice, I have seen many people break the cycle by adopting a diet designed to balance out the blood-sugar levels. You can achieve this by eating three meals a day based on relatively slow sugar-releasing foods such as meat, fish, eggs, vegetables and a limited amount of unrefined starch-based foods such as potato, brown rice and wholemeal pasta. Snacks of fresh fruit and/or nuts between meals can also be useful for keeping blood-sugar levels stable. Scientific validation for such an approach comes in the form of a study in which 20 bulimic women were put on a sugar-stabilising diet. Within three weeks, all of them had stopped bingeing and remained free from binges in the long term. This suggests that a nutritional approach often proves effective for curbing uncontrolled eating and promises significant benefits for individuals keen to get bulimia out of their system. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1157072,00.html'' >> Saying that it is impossible is disingenious. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > eating disorder from bulimia or anorexia, the other two eating disorders > that involve binge eating. I have finally decided to order that book (cost me $10 used at amazon). It appears to be better than most books on overcoming things written with emphasis on psychology alone, but let's see what it says. The reviews were pretty good. > Not to speak for Beverly, but I believe the point she was trying to > make is that your constant "just stop doing it" approach makes you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the number of different people in this group who have repeatedly > told you this and yet you still don't get it. I merely highlighted a few relevant parts of the story of a person who was successful in combating their food issues (according to that story). Basically, I think that what your argument boils down to, is that not all people are able to stop their destructive behaviors cold turkey. Examples of such behaviors are quitting drinking completely or quitting smoking completely or quitting eating junk food and trigger foods completely. And that is quite possible that not all people can do it. Why not all people cannot do it is not clear at all. Could be a few reasons together. Now, when the people who cannot stop such behaviors cold turkey hear that stopping them works, naturally, they become upset at the messenger. But, that they are upset does not mean that the message is false. i Ignoramus wrote: >Now, when the people who cannot stop such behaviors cold turkey hear >that stopping them works, naturally, they become upset at the >messenger. But, that they are upset does not mean that the message is >false. I think you need to take the words "cold turkey" out of that sentence. Some people appear not to be able to stop addictive behaviors, period. For me, in every case, it has *eventually* come down to "Just do it" -- so I find it hard to comprehend and sometimes lack empathy I wish I had (though I keep it to myself, or I have until right now!). But I understand, too, that I haven't walked in everyone's shoes and that I don't know everything. If nothing else, that has taught me to keep my lip buttoned and keep my viewpoint to myself. beeswing > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I think you need to take the words "cold turkey" out of that > sentence. Fair enough. > Some people appear not to be able to stop addictive behaviors, > period. For me, in every case, it has *eventually* come down to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that has taught me to keep my lip buttoned and keep my viewpoint to > myself. You have a good message here. I think that I understand what you are saying between the lines. i >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >beeswing I think I know what you're saying here Beeswing - I too find it very hard to empathise with other people over things I can't identify with from my own experience. Examples - I've never experienced PMS and therefore I find myself thinking (even though I don't say it) that when other people talk about it, it must be something that exists in their head. Likewise, I've never failed to lose weight when I stick to an appropriate WOE. I therefore find myself very sceptical about others who claim to not be able to lose weight but say they don't eat much. With binge eating, I see it from the other point of view. I know what a real problem it is and that "just do it" doesn't work that simply for me, but I can also see how those who haven't experienced it find it almost impossible to understand and empathise with. I guess we all have a bit of this in us, but like you I remind myself that it's not for me to lay down the law for others about something I obviously don't fully understand. janice janice Hark! I heard janice@london.uk (janice) say: > I too find it very > hard to empathise with other people over things I can't identify with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > others who claim to not be able to lose weight but say they don't eat > much. <snip> I think many of these folks could be in plain old denial. I speak from experience -- I used to complain to DH that I didn't eat that much, certainly no more than he does, so why was I heavy? For years, I kept telling myself that since I never sat down and ate half a pie or a box of donuts at one sitting, that I just didn't eat that much. When I finally faced the truth (by tracking my calorie intake), I realized that I'd been fooling myself and had to eat less junk and excercise more... SignatureJ.J. in WA State - 251/234/150 (Change COLD to HOT for e-mail) > Hark! I heard janice@london.uk (janice) say: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > realized that I'd been fooling myself and had to eat less junk and > excercise more... Yep, there are those people and they may be the majority of the obese people out there. However, there really are people with an eating disorder who are extremely conscious of what they're eating and yet not able to control it. When I was fat I never questioned why, I always knew. I realize it's difficult to understand if you aren't in it. I haven't been to France, but I know it's there. Jenn Hark! I heard "JMA" <bjenniferb@yahoo.com> say: > > Hark! I heard janice@london.uk (janice) say: > > > I too find it very > > > hard to empathise with other people over things I can't identify with [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > out there. However, there really are people with an eating disorder who are > extremely conscious of what they're eating and yet not able to control it. Oh certainly! While this thread is, technically, about eating disorders, I wasn't and wouldn't presume to speak about them. I was just referring to your average overeater in denial. Eating disorders are something I know little to nothing about. > When I was fat I never questioned why, I always knew. I realize it's > difficult to understand if you aren't in it. I haven't been to France, but > I know it's there. At least, that's what they say... ;-) SignatureJ.J. in WA State - 251/234/150 (Change COLD to HOT for e-mail) However, there really are people with an eating disorder who are > extremely conscious of what they're eating and yet not able to control it. > When I was fat I never questioned why, I always knew. I realize it's > difficult to understand if you aren't in it. I haven't been to France, but > I know it's there. > > Jenn You are exactly right. That is how it is with me when I go through my episodes. I know what I am doing, I know what I should do, I know what I can do... and I can't seem to stop. > However, there really are people with an eating disorder who are > > extremely conscious of what they're eating and yet not able to control it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > episodes. I know what I am doing, I know what I should do, I know what I > can do... and I can't seem to stop. And it's not like either you or I, or anyone else posting to this group who has discussed their binge eating, are sitting around constantly binge eating and crying woe is me about it. We're actively seeking and trying solutions to our situations. I think we've recognized that this has to stop. If it were as easy as deciding I'm not going to do it anymore, I certainly wouldn't be doing it anymore. It's not adding any quality to my life. If anything it nearly destroyed me this past winter. > If it >were as easy as deciding I'm not going to do it anymore, I certainly >wouldn't be doing it anymore. You don't understand the other side of it. I've stopped compulsive behavior before exactly that way. It was extremely difficult, and it took me a few runs at it before I succeeded. I don't know why I was successful where others weren't. It could be brain chemistry, but it also could be hard headedness on my part. We as a society aren't in a place where we know, yet. beeswing x-no-archive: yes > > If it > >were as easy as deciding I'm not going to do it anymore, I certainly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > beeswing I do understand that some compulsive behavior can be stopped exactly that way. I stopped biting my nails because one day I looked at my hands and thought they looked ugly. I never bit my nails again. Some people actually stop binge eating that way too. I have stopped many times. I stopped for nearly a year while I was on the liquid diet and the refeed. Now that I'm focusing on the eating disorder as opposed to my weight, I might have a better chance at success. Yes, I firmly believe it's brain chemistry. It's a problem in processing the signals which is why the program I'm on may actually work for me. It's a cognitive approach. So, in reality I did decide I'm not going to do it anymore and I'm taking the necessary steps to make that happen. It's not going to happen just because I decided I don't want to do it anymore - I actually have to perform a process to work at it besides simple resistance. So I think we're saying the same thing just in a different way or at least we're both in the same ballpark. Jenn Jenn wrote: >So I think we're saying the same thing just in a different way or at least >we're both in the same ballpark When you describe it that way -- I do think we are in the same ballpark. But, for the record, I wasn't talking about anything as (relatively) simple as biting my nails.... beeswing > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > beeswing Me either. My original point was that true eating disorders aren't generally cured by simplistic measures like waking up one day and deciding "I'm not going to do this anymore" and the problem stops forever. People who want to stop can do it, but it takes more than "just don't do it anymore." In your other post about the person who felt in control vs. the one who felt out of control, you were right that the one who felt in control would be more successful. What I'm saying is that the person who feels out of control needs to learn that control can be gained and take the steps to gain control. In no way was I advocating that anyone feeling a lack of control should just sit back and let it continue if they're not happy with their situation. For me it will be impossible (yes, impossible) to give up all of the foods I binge on since at times I've pretty much binged on everything, including fruits and vegetables. This is not a defeatist attitude, it's just common sense. I'd have to give up some very healthy foods I normally enjoy in moderation. Since my episodes are not food triggered, giving up specific foods isn't going to help the situation and may exacerbate it. OTOH, I don't keep junk food in my house and I don't have foods that I enjoy over-indulging on. Instead I moderate them by going out to eat. Jenn trying to find balance Jenn wrote: >For me it will be impossible (yes, impossible) to give up all of the foods I >binge on since at times I've pretty much binged on everything, including >fruits and vegetables. But giving up the foods you binge on wouldn't be at all neccessary. You need "only" to give up *bingeing* on them. And my position is that that's difficult, very difficult -- but not impossible. "Only." Yeah, I know. If you respond, be kind. beeswing > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > beeswing LOL I've never said it would be impossible for *me* to stop being bulimic. If I really thought that, I sure wouldn't be putting in the effort to do so. I'd be on my way back to my original weight and out partying with my friends instead of having a thoughtful and insighful discussion about the issues. It's impossible for some people only because they won't do the work necessary. They haven't made the decision to give it up or have consciously made the decision to continue - there are pro-ana groups that advocate anorexia and bulimia as lifestyle choices. Again, there is work involved and that was the point. We've been pretty much arguing the same side of the issue. It has been the contention of some that all one has to do is simply stop doing it and by giving up certain foods it will stop. It's been my contention (supported by eating disorder specialists) that it's rare for a person with the disorder to be able to just "stop" without some type of reconditioning or treatment. I'm the one who was arguing in favor of not having to give up foods :) Jenn > For me it will be impossible (yes, impossible) to give up all of the foods I > binge on since at times I've pretty much binged on everything, including > fruits and vegetables. This is not a defeatist attitude, it's just common Let's say you eat 5 pounds of vegetables. Other than your husband's inconvenience from you passing gas, I see no health damage or any other damage from stuffing yourself full of vegetables. Many people do it routinely. Calling it a binge is misleading -- there is no damage that I can see (especially if you are used to digesting a lot of vegetables) i Hark! I heard Ignoramus29346 <ignoramus29346@NOSPAM.29346.invalid> say: > > For me it will be impossible (yes, impossible) to give up all of the foods I > > binge on since at times I've pretty much binged on everything, including [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that I can see (especially if you are used to digesting a lot of > vegetables) But if you're not used to it, ya gotta start slow. Early in my newer WOE, I ate nearly 1# of "baby" peeled carrots in one sitting. Let's just say I didn't need to use the bathroom for a while... ;-) SignatureJ.J. in WA State - 251/234/150 (Change COLD to HOT for e-mail) > Hark! I heard Ignoramus29346 <ignoramus29346@NOSPAM.29346.invalid> say: >> > For me it will be impossible (yes, impossible) to give up all of the foods I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > WOE, I ate nearly 1# of "baby" peeled carrots in one sitting. Let's > just say I didn't need to use the bathroom for a while... ;-) Yep... but once people get used to it, they can eat a huge quantity of vegetables. i >>For me it will be impossible (yes, impossible) to give up all of the foods I >>binge on since at times I've pretty much binged on everything, including [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > i I think that you need to look up the definition of binge. Here, let me do that for you "an unrestrained and often excessive indulgence." Signaturejmk in NC >> However, there really are people with an eating disorder who are >> > extremely conscious of what they're eating and yet not able to control [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > wouldn't be doing it anymore. It's not adding any quality to my life. If > anything it nearly destroyed me this past winter. I am curious, have you tried going through some sort of a checklist? Checking if binging could be alleviated by eating more calories, eating carbs and fat separately, asking your husband to stop you, etc etc? Not eating binge foods, not buying them, or eating them in a preventative manner? Have you tried maybe some experimenting? Is it getting better with your weight gain? Have you tried eating low carb? Maybe you lost too much weight, especially considering your 20 lbs of extra skin that you once mentioned? i > I am curious, have you tried going through some sort of a checklist? > Checking if binging could be alleviated by eating more calories, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > i I've done numerous things since the problem started again, including professional help but not with a specialist because the closest one is a 4-hr drive from here. I believe it was triggered by the edema and 20 lb in 48 hrs weight gain last November thanks to the adrenal & hormone problem (pre-existing and probably a major contributor to my original obesity). The gain just started the whole negative cycle of failure, etc. Even though the gain wasn't due to anything I'd actually done, I took it as a failure and reacted immediately with full blown bulimia. I was able to control things while I was undergoing all of the medical tests, but the constant +/- 20 lbs every few days just blew my mind. Currently I'm working through the program in the Overcoming Binge Eating book. It's a cognitive-behavioral approach to the situation. In the past I've had success with cognitive-behavioral therapy for other things so I'm hopeful that it will be successful here too. Now that my weight isn't as big of a health issue that it's been most of my life, I can really focus on this problem. >Currently I'm working through the program in the Overcoming Binge Eating >book. It's a cognitive-behavioral approach to the situation. In the past >I've had success with cognitive-behavioral therapy for other things so I'm >hopeful that it will be successful here too. Now that my weight isn't as >big of a health issue that it's been most of my life, I can really focus on >this problem. I'm glad you said that, Jenn, because this is the big problem I have with tackling the issue with a behavioural approach that doesn't focus on weight loss, and even doesn't promise me I'll lose any weight at all. I keep thinking that I'd find it much easier to tackle the behaviour when I'd lost the weight, and when my weight was no longer the main issue. Until then, I don't want to be told about any "treatment" that won't deliver weight loss. Of course, this is just another cycle to be caught up in and can result in getting nowhere. I'll be most interested to hear how you get on with Christopher Fairburn's method. janice "JMA" <bjenniferb@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Currently I'm working through the program in the Overcoming Binge Eating > book. It's a cognitive-behavioral approach to the situation. In the past > I've had success with cognitive-behavioral therapy for other things so I'm > hopeful that it will be successful here too. Now that my weight isn't as > big of a health issue that it's been most of my life, I can really focus on > this problem. I still need to buy that book. I am betting it could help me. > I am curious, have you tried going through some sort of a checklist? > Checking if binging could be alleviated by eating more calories, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > i You do know now google works, right? Perhaps a search on "binge eat" might help you out. Signaturejmk in NC >When I was fat I never questioned why, I always knew. Me too, but as we know that doesn't make it one jot easier to do something about it! janice > Hark! I heard janice@london.uk (janice) say: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > realized that I'd been fooling myself and had to eat less junk and > excercise more... do you remember how many calories you were eating at 251 lbs? Just curious. i Hark! I heard Ignoramus29346 <ignoramus29346@NOSPAM.29346.invalid> say: > > Hark! I heard janice@london.uk (janice) say: > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > realized that I'd been fooling myself and had to eat less junk and > > excercise more... > do you remember how many calories you were eating at 251 lbs? Just > curious. Oi! No, I didn't figure it out -- I'd already lost 24 pounds at that point from undiagnosed diabetes and cutting down on portion size, when the doctor told me to only eat 1500 kcals per day. But I know I used to snack on 3-4 candy bars and a bag of microwave popcorn with 1/2 a cube of real butter on it at least 5 times per week, if that helps. Ugh, makes me nauseous to think about it now... SignatureJ.J. in WA State - 251/234/150 (Change COLD to HOT for e-mail) > Examples - I've never experienced PMS and > therefore I find myself thinking (even though I don't say it) that > when other people talk about it, it must be something that exists in > their head. I was told it was in my head. However, I used to have extremely irregular periods. The very day before each period, I'd have intense, weepy times, get irrationally angry with my husband, and have no freaking clue why. (Also, have wicked chocolate cravings). I'd wake up the next morning, NO cravings, feeling a ton better, but having my period. I'd wake up thinking "well, doh, I should have known!". It's like the day before my hormones got together and had a wicked party. Nowadays, with better eating and proper thyroid treatment, my periods are more regular. I can better prepare for pms because I now have a more or less even number of days between check marks on my calendar. Being able to predict these past couple of years of periods in advance has made the pms episodes FAR less dramatic, and less troubling. SignatureThe post you just read, unless otherwise noted, is strictly my opinion and experience. Please interpret accordingly. >> Examples - I've never experienced PMS and >> therefore I find myself thinking (even though I don't say it) that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > predict these past couple of years of periods in advance has made the pms > episodes FAR less dramatic, and less troubling. One lady I know lost about 20 lbs in 1.5 years, simply by eating less. Her PMS is now much better and more controllable. i > Basically, I think that what your argument boils down to, is that not > all people are able to stop their destructive behaviors cold turkey. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > people cannot do it is not clear at all. Could be a few reasons > together. When you read the book you will see that are other studies that show bulimics do not focus on sugary foods, but instead the composition is primarily fat or more correctly sweet foods with a high fat content. If it were just sugary foods then things like pop and candy would be up there on the list. What most bulimics report as food they binge on are "forbidden foods" meaning that the elimination of certain foods from a diet actually triggers binges for most bulimics and anorexics, not necessarily those with binge eating disorder. Bulimics and anorexics are not necessarily addicted to foods. When you are addicted, you actually *want* the substance you're addicted to. Bulimics and anorexics avoid food. > Now, when the people who cannot stop such behaviors cold turkey hear > that stopping them works, naturally, they become upset at the > messenger. But, that they are upset does not mean that the message is > false. > > i People get pissed off at you not because of your message but because of your delivery system. And when you continually dismiss and belittle people and treat them like they're stupid, your message gets lost in the noise. Here's an example. I quit smoking a number of years ago after a 20+ year habit that began when I was 11. I decided to stop one day and did for the most part with a few lapses, mostly involving alcohol. I can't remember the last time I had a cigarette and have no desire for one. Anyway, I have a lot of friends who smoke that have been unsuccessful in quitting. When they come to me for support, I could say one of two things: 1. Just put down your cigarettes and don't light another. The sooner you stop the better off you will be. All I did was decide I wasn't going to smoke one day and it worked. That's all you need to do. 2. I was fortunate that I could stop just by deciding not to do it anymore. I had occasional lapses, but I don't have the desire to smoke anymore. What methods have you tried? (etc. I might go on to recommend other things that have helped people I know like zyban, whatever) Think before you speak or hit the send button. Remember your audience. As you have been reminded, this is a support group. Believe it or not, most binge eaters and definitely all bulimics are already doing enough self-belittling and criticizing and don't need your help in feeling like failures. "JMA" <bjenniferb@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Here's an example. I quit smoking a number of years ago after a 20+ year > habit that began when I was 11. I decided to stop one day and did for the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > methods have you tried? (etc. I might go on to recommend other things that > have helped people I know like zyban, whatever) It was the same way with me when I quit in October. I told myself it was time and just stopped. I don't crave them at all now and hate the smell. I used zyban and still do (wellbutrin). > Think before you speak or hit the send button. Remember your audience. As > you have been reminded, this is a support group. Believe it or not, most > binge eaters and definitely all bulimics are already doing enough > self-belittling and criticizing and don't need your help in feeling like > failures. I couldn't have put it better. Thanks for understanding, Jenn. >> Basically, I think that what your argument boils down to, is that not >> all people are able to stop their destructive behaviors cold turkey. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > primarily fat or more correctly sweet foods with a high fat > content. Makes sense. > If it were just sugary foods then things like pop and candy would be > up there on the list. What most bulimics report as food they binge > on are "forbidden foods" meaning that the elimination of certain > foods from a diet actually triggers binges for most bulimics and > anorexics, not necessarily those with binge eating disorder. What was eliminated? Were they putting themselves on some extreme diets (like lowfat)? > Bulimics and anorexics are not necessarily addicted to foods. When > you are addicted, you actually *want* the substance you're addicted > to. Bulimics and anorexics avoid food. I would not mix together anorexics, many of whom do not binge, and bingers. >> Now, when the people who cannot stop such behaviors cold turkey hear >> that stopping them works, naturally, they become upset at the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > delivery system. And when you continually dismiss and belittle people and > treat them like they're stupid, your message gets lost in the noise. I happen to have an abrasive style, quite possibly due to my personality, or quite possibly due to the fact that English is not my native language and most of the books I read are non fiction. > Here's an example. I quit smoking a number of years ago after a 20+ year > habit that began when I was 11. I decided to stop one day and did for the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > self-belittling and criticizing and don't need your help in feeling like > failures. That's quite sensible and besides, I am impressed with your quitting smoking success. You are a member of a minority. i > > If it were just sugary foods then things like pop and candy would be > > up there on the list. What most bulimics report as food they binge [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What was eliminated? Were they putting themselves on some extreme > diets (like lowfat)? The discussion just mentioned extreme diets (low calorie) and strict diets - ones that avoid certain types of food. The author gave one woman's list of avoided foods with numerous items on it including typical junk like cookies and cake, but also pasta, flour, and yogurt. > > Bulimics and anorexics are not necessarily addicted to foods. When > > you are addicted, you actually *want* the substance you're addicted > > to. Bulimics and anorexics avoid food. > > I would not mix together anorexics, many of whom do not binge, and > bingers. You will be surprised to learn that anorexics do binge. Their binges are more subjective since they are often small but still the sense of loss of control and the amount is *viewed* as excessive. Bingeing is in the eye of the beholder. If you read this book objectively, I think you will really gain a better understanding of the whole eating disorder thing. I've been living it for 25 years and I really found it eye-opening. >> > If it were just sugary foods then things like pop and candy would be >> > up there on the list. What most bulimics report as food they binge [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > typical junk like cookies and cake, but also pasta, flour, and > yogurt. Let's agree on terms here... What you just described is not that extreme. I do not eat any packaged "junk food" and no sugar, and no hydrogenated oils, so I have some experience with limiting foods. It is basically no big deal, as there is so much real stuff available to eat instead. I have not eaten it for a year and I could not care less for that stuff now. 100 years ago people did not even know that those foods that I now avoid, could exist. An extreme diet, to me, is extreme lowfatting, lowcarbing, or veganism, or severe calorie restriction. Or something similar. Some diet where a large group of real foods, that do not have substitutes, is eliminated. >> > Bulimics and anorexics are not necessarily addicted to foods. When >> > you are addicted, you actually *want* the substance you're addicted [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > gain a better understanding of the whole eating disorder thing. I've been > living it for 25 years and I really found it eye-opening. Some anorexics do binge, and some do not. I have a compulsive behavior that I had since childhood, that I might mention here, even though it is OT. i > > The discussion just mentioned extreme diets (low calorie) and strict > > diets - ones that avoid certain types of food. The author gave one [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > diet where a large group of real foods, that do not have substitutes, > is eliminated. Yep. Extreme is severe restrictions on how much, when, or what is eaten based on the definition given by the author. Strict actually refers to a specific goal rather than a general one - I got that one mixed up. Again, you will see how this doctor shows that by using extreme and strict dieting, bulimics set themselves up for failure. While it's working for you, that's great and there's nothing wrong with it if it isn't causing you trouble. It isn't always going to work for everyone. I wish it *would* work for me because I do a great job of giving things up. Let's say you were at a social gathering and *were* actually tempted by some type of sweet dessert item. Even though you knew it was chock full 'o sugar that you've been able to successfully avoid for so long now, you were so tempted by this item that you decided to give in to temptation and have a small, reasonably sized portion. You know intellectually that it will not cause you to regain all of your weight and you won't be eating it again any time soon - it was a rare treat of sorts. Most people can handle that and move on. Blood sugar reactions normalize within hours. Those with the eating disorder will immediately feel shame, guilt, and/or failure. It might bug so badly, getting worse and worse until the urge to binge is so strong there is no room for any other thoughts. Why? Because they ate something "bad" or "forbidden." I'm not talking about a mildly unpleasant feeling or a rumbling stomach, but a complete preoccupation. > >> I would not mix together anorexics, many of whom do not binge, and > >> bingers. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Some anorexics do binge, and some do not. About 1/3 do. If you've ever been to a pro-ana website, they give advice on how to binge and purge. >> > The discussion just mentioned extreme diets (low calorie) and strict >> > diets - ones that avoid certain types of food. The author gave one [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > you will see how this doctor shows that by using extreme and strict dieting, > bulimics set themselves up for failure. What about strict but not extreme dieting? It appears that how I eat, can be described as strict, but it is by no means extreme -- all food groups and macronutrients are still available from all kind sof sources. Have they looked into this? I guess I will get the book in a few days. You see, I have a few books on eating and overcoming eating and overcoming obesity and so on, and they were all disappointing to me. Too much psychology with zero basis in any controlled studies, a lot of personal selling, contrived examples etc. Looks like to all these diet authors with their hammers, every diet problem looks like a nail. So psychologists go on and on about how one needs to feel good about oneself, etc etc. > While it's working for you, that's great and there's nothing wrong > with it if it isn't causing you trouble. It isn't always going to > work for everyone. I wish it *would* work for me because I do a > great job of giving things up. That's interesting that you tried giving those things up... > Let's say you were at a social gathering and *were* actually tempted by some > type of sweet dessert item. Even though you knew it was chock full 'o sugar [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cause you to regain all of your weight and you won't be eating it again any > time soon - it was a rare treat of sorts. Surely it would not be a problem. I sometimes taste some of those sweet baked things that my MIL bakes, in tiny sizes. Not big enough size to cause any possible sugar reaction. I tasted an ice cream at my birthday party, we had a IC container that spent a year in the fridge, and I wanted to make sure that I am not poisoning my guests. So I tried maybe 3-4 grams of it. > Most people can handle that and move on. Blood sugar reactions normalize > within hours. Those with the eating disorder will immediately feel shame, > guilt, and/or failure. I would probably feel shame, guilt, failure etc, as well, if I ate a non-symbolic-sized portion of sweet cookies or ice cream. I would be mightily upset at myself. > It might bug so badly, getting worse and worse until the urge to > binge is so strong there is no room for any other thoughts. Why? > Because they ate something "bad" or "forbidden." I'm not talking > about a mildly unpleasant feeling or a rumbling stomach, but a > complete preoccupation. Scary stuff! >> >> I would not mix together anorexics, many of whom do not binge, and >> >> bingers. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > About 1/3 do. If you've ever been to a pro-ana website, they give advice on > how to binge and purge. Right, but 2/3 do not. I am subscribed to a calorie restriction email discussion group. Someone could say (incorrectly) that they are anorexics. They are not, but their goal is to eat as little as possible for a certain health goal. While they are not anorexics, they provide some perspective on people who make self denial a tool for reaching happiness. i >I would probably feel shame, guilt, failure etc, as well, if I ate a >non-symbolic-sized portion of sweet cookies or ice cream. I would >be mightily upset at myself. I wouldn't at all. I'd just say to myself, "that was fun" and go back to my regular WOE. Or I might say, "OK, that wasn't nearly as good as it looked. I'll pass on those next time." But the latter wouldn't put me off cookies or ice cream in general. Since I've begun limiting my intake, I'm more discriminating about where I spend it, so if I'm going to eat sweets I want really good ones :-). Chris Chris Braus wrote: >>I would probably feel shame, guilt, failure etc, as well, if I ate a >>non-symbolic-sized portion of sweet cookies or ice cream. I would [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >my intake, I'm more discriminating about where I spend it, so if I'm >going to eat sweets I want really good ones :-) Yep, exactly. beeswing I wrote: >Chris Braus wrote: Chris Braun, even. Sorry, Chris! 6:39 on a Saturday morning, and no coffee yet! beeswing >>I would probably feel shame, guilt, failure etc, as well, if I ate a >>non-symbolic-sized portion of sweet cookies or ice cream. I would [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > my intake, I'm more discriminating about where I spend it, so if I'm > going to eat sweets I want really good ones :-). Me too. I had 3 Friendly's Happy Ending sundaes (the smallest one they make) with hot fudge and marshmallow during the 3 weeks I was away. They were worth every mile I'll walk to get rid of them. Official weigh-in on Monday, so I won't know the true damage until then. But you know what? It doesn't matter. I haven't reverted to my old WOL. I'm just fine. (I actually spit out some pretty but tasteless gum drop kind of candy that was in a dish at my friend's house. I need *big* bang for my calorie bucks <g>) SignatureWalking on . . . Laurie in Maine 207/110 60 inches of attitude! Start: 2/02 Maintained since 2/03 > >>I would probably feel shame, guilt, failure etc, as well, if I ate a > >>non-symbolic-sized portion of sweet cookies or ice cream. I would [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > kind of candy that was in a dish at my friend's house. I need *big* bang > for my calorie bucks <g>) I discovered back during refeed that if I allow myself to try something I think might be great, it doesn't always live up to expectations and in a lot of cases I've weaned myself from some foods that used to be a staple of my old, crappy diet. The difference is that it's not seen as bad or forbidden, just not satisfying. Jenn > I discovered back during refeed that if I allow myself to try > something I think might be great, it doesn't always live up to > expectations and in a lot of cases I've weaned myself from some foods > that used to be a staple of my old, crappy diet. The difference is > that it's not seen as bad or forbidden, just not satisfying. It's amazing to me that my former favorite lunch - pasta with butter and salt has NO appeal to me any more. When planning something as a treat now, I'd never dream of having that. A nice olive roll with pesto is another thing entirely . . . SignatureWalking on . . . Laurie in Maine 207/110 60 inches of attitude! Start: 2/02 Maintained since 2/03 >It's amazing to me that my former favorite lunch - pasta with butter and >salt has NO appeal to me any more. When planning something as a treat >now, I'd never dream of having that. This isn't anything that would have ever appealed to me :-). It sounds so bland. I've never been a huge pasta eater -- except in forms with lots of cheese like lasagne :-) -- but I've always preferred it with tomato & meat sauces. >A nice olive roll with pesto is another thing entirely . . . Well, I really like olives and I really like pesto, but what's an olive roll? Chris > Well, I really like olives and I really like pesto, but what's an > olive roll? My favorite health food store sells these marvelous rolls with spicy olives rolled up in the dough before baking. They are delivered on Monday mornings and if I'm in town I'll get one for my lunch and eat half with pesto. If my husband doesn't want the other half, I toast it later in the week with a little mozzarella on it. I'd try to duplicate it but I don't really need to be making these do I? A 40 mile round trip can be a good dieting tool. <g> SignatureWalking on . . . Laurie in Maine 207/110 60 inches of attitude! Start: 2/02 Maintained since 2/03 >> Well, I really like olives and I really like pesto, but what's an >> olive roll? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I'd try to duplicate it but I don't really need to be making these do I? >A 40 mile round trip can be a good dieting tool. <g> These sound very yummy :-). Chris 262/150/ (145-150) > You see, I have a few books on eating and overcoming eating and > overcoming obesity and so on, and they were all disappointing to > me. Too much psychology with zero basis in any controlled studies, a > lot of personal selling, contrived examples etc. We're not talking about simply eating and obesity here. We're talking about a disease. Obesity is being referred to these days as a disease, but there's a distinction. > Looks like to all these diet authors with their hammers, every diet > problem looks like a nail. So psychologists go on and on about how one > needs to feel good about oneself, etc etc. That's *not* at all what I've been saying from the start. Just because a person can't simply quit by deciding not to do it anymore doesn't mean they shouldn't be taking the necessary steps to try and stop. Would you recommend that person with bipolar disease just fix the problem themselves? You are generalizing psychology. The cognitive-behavioral approach in this book will probably appeal to you because it's not all about feelings. > >> Some anorexics do binge, and some do not. > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > i Anorexia is a specific disease. There are conditions that need to be met in order for someone to be anorexic. The first is that you need to be significantly underweight (BMI <18), the second is being overly concerned about shape and weight to the point of being terrified of gaining weight and becoming fat. Most anorexics consider themselves fat due to a highly distorted body image. They will never be happy. True anorexia is extremely frightening and is a psychiatric disease that carries the highest death rate. >> You see, I have a few books on eating and overcoming eating and >> overcoming obesity and so on, and they were all disappointing to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >a disease. Obesity is being referred to these days as a disease, but >there's a distinction. Yes, IMO obesity is a side-effect, rather than a disease. Whether it's a side-effect of an eating disorder or just of plain overeating or perhaps, rarely, some physiological reason not related to eating, it's still a side-effect. janice >I happen to have an abrasive style, quite possibly due to my >personality, or quite possibly due to the fact that English is not my >native language and most of the books I read are non fiction. Can't you just stop being abrasive just by deciding to stop? Kind of like bingers can stop bingeing by just deciding to do so? Chris >>I happen to have an abrasive style, quite possibly due to my >>personality, or quite possibly due to the fact that English is not my >>native language and most of the books I read are non fiction. > > Can't you just stop being abrasive just by deciding to stop? Kind of > like bingers can stop bingeing by just deciding to do so? It's partly a language thing. English is not my native language and I learned my writing style by reading non-fiction books and usenet. Good question though. Something to think about. But let me ask you something, if you think about my posts towards you, do you think of them as being deliberately offensive to you, or arrogant? I would be interested in this feedback. Aside from this, we should distinguish between provocative ideas and bad delivery style. I do not think that I should make a big effort to not post provocative ideas, if I believe that they are right at the time of posting, just because it upsets someone. I think that we are stimulated by this intellectually. An exampe of such provocative thought would be an idea that food binging needs to be stopped cold turkey. Right or wrong, withdrawing this idea just because it upsets certain people, is senseless and contrary to the culture of selecting the best ideas with open mind. On the other hand, a presentation style is something that I can work on. But, I think, an abrasive presentation style is also sometimes more effective at getting the message across. It is, at this point, an issue to ponder for me. i Ignoramus wrote: >On the other hand, a presentation style is something that I can work >on. But, I think, an abrasive presentation style is also sometimes >more effective at getting the message across. As a professional communicator, I offer you the following insight, for whatever it is worth: The single most important thing in any communication endeavor is that you get your message across, however you choose to go about doing so. If you turn people off in your delivery to a point where they are no longer listening to you (by being abrasive or whatever) --- you have failed in your primary purpose...in other words, you've failed to deliver your message. Just something to think about. beeswing > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Just something to think about. Well, yes, but maybe this thought it delivered to other people. We had this issue in alt.support.diet.low-carb, I would rally against lowcarb labeled junk food, and that upset many people who thought that LC junk food was a gift from God (usually they did not do well on their diet). But, I think, after a while of this much more consensus emerged there that "low carb junk food is still junk food". Obviously, there were other people arguing the same thing as I did, but I hope that my role in solidifying that opinion was tangible. Big picture wise though, you are right and a style that does not deliver the message across to anyone, is worthless and a waste of time. i > >>I happen to have an abrasive style, quite possibly due to my > >>personality, or quite possibly due to the fact that English is not my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > It's partly a language thing. Wrong. Just stop doing it. I know plenty of people for whom English is a second language and they don't act like you do. And hey, many of them are Russian and they wouldn't put up with you either. Take your own words and stop. Martha >Good question though. Something to think about. But let me ask you >something, if you think about my posts towards you, do you think of >them as being deliberately offensive to you, or arrogant? I would be >interested in this feedback. Generally not, though I sometimes have thought they were unnecessarily contentious. I would characterize them more as rather dry and humorless. You can certainly attribute this to the "non-fiction style", but a sense of humor is helpful in interacting with others. >Aside from this, we should distinguish between provocative ideas and >bad delivery style. I do not think that I should make a big effort to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >certain people, is senseless and contrary to the culture of selecting >the best ideas with open mind. Something that I think you could work on is presenting more of your ideas as opinions rather than as fact. This is often perceived as a male-female difference in communicating, though I don't know if that's true. In the above paragraph, you generally do a good job of saying "I think", and "I believe". You often do not. Hence you are more likely to be perceived as a know-it-all. >On the other hand, a presentation style is something that I can work >on. But, I think, an abrasive presentation style is also sometimes >more effective at getting the message across. Rarely, I'd say. I expect it more typically makes people reject the message. Chris > >Good question though. Something to think about. But let me ask you > >something, if you think about my posts towards you, do you think of [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >on. But, I think, an abrasive presentation style is also sometimes > >more effective at getting the message across. I can't think of one situation where an abrasive presentation style would result in getting the message across better. Do you have an example of this? I often sit in meetings and hash out the specifications for new systems or modifications to existing ones. I can tell you from experience that anyone acting in an abrasive manner has a hard time selling his ideas to anyone in the room. I'll give you a good example of how acting in a civil manner gets someone's attention more than the abrasive approach. The house next to me was damaged in a fire recently. The entire interior and part of the roof was destroyed. There has been construction going on for the past month. Last Saturday I observed some young people, probably 10-14 years old, running in and out of the house through a side door. Instead of yelling at them to get and having them yell back at me I simply approached them and asked if they were aware what they were doing was against the law? You should have seen the surprised look on their face. I think they knew what they were doing wasn't right but never stopped to consider it was breaking the law. We talked for a few minutes and they left. No harsh words were spoken and they promised not to go back into the house. I've seen them around the neighborhood playing this week but I haven't seen them back in the neighbor's yard. Beverly > Rarely, I'd say. I expect it more typically makes people reject the > message. > > Chris >Can't you just stop being abrasive just by deciding to stop? Kind of >like bingers can stop bingeing by just deciding to do so? > >Chris LOL. Thanks for giving me a laugh Chris. janice "Chris Braun" <braun_chris@mindspring.com> wrote in > Can't you just stop being abrasive just by deciding to stop? Kind of > like bingers can stop bingeing by just deciding to do so? > > Chris I bet he can't! >I happen to have an abrasive style, quite possibly due to my >personality, or quite possibly due to the fact that English is not my >native language and most of the books I read are non fiction. This made me laugh, Ig - and I'm not attacking you here, just wondering why reading non-fiction should contribute to your abrasive style. Perhaps what you need is to read a few cheap romance stories to soften you up a bit:) janice > I would not mix together anorexics, many of whom do not binge, and > bingers. Then you know even less than I thought, if that's possible. Many, many do. Martha >>Binge-eating is seen as eating disorder > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I do not mind that I have not eaten any sweets in almost a year. Uh, I do recall you mentioning eating chocolate though. Baker's chocolate sounds yucky to me but "Helen" is discussing chocolate, not sweets. --- jmk in NC >>>Binge-eating is seen as eating disorder >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > chocolate sounds yucky to me but "Helen" is discussing chocolate, not > sweets. Well, each person has their own trigger foods... Baker's chocolate is not the kind of thing that makes me overeat anything. Whereas, with sweets and stuff, whenI was eating them, it was hard for me to stop. i |
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