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Fasting and weight loss

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Roger Lepine - 24 Jul 2004 17:24 GMT
Dear experts,

Here's an interesting question for you.

Given: a standard 2000 calorie diet.  
Activity:  normal office activity, no exercise
Weight:  200 pounds, male.

If a person fasts for, 32-36 hours, say from
Thursday night, until Saturday morning,

What can the expected weight loss be for the this
time period?  

Perhaps 10 glasses of water drunk through this
time period.  

Remembering my high school science, there is
the law of conservation of mass.  

Applied to eating, this means, that to gain
10 pounds, you must consume at least 10
pounds of food and water.  Obviously, a lot
more than 10 pounds, because so much of the
food and water is converted to energy, waste,
and evaporated through the skin.  

With this physics, you cannot eat a few ounzes,
and gain a few pounds.  

Assume all other things being equal.  

I know that diet has become a religious war
item these days, and I'm not interested in such.  

Please don't bother speculating about long
term averages, about eating more when you break
the fast, etc.  Or about exercise, red herrings,
or other variables that are not in the question.

Please also don't bother talking about
whether this is adviseable or not.  

Just the answer please.  

Hopefully based on some kind of science or
experience, not speculation.

Thanks a lot
George UK - 24 Jul 2004 18:56 GMT
You dickhead.

Signature

George UK

> Dear experts,
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Thanks a lot
Phil Scott - 24 Jul 2004 21:15 GMT
> You dickhead.

 Now George...you have LIBEL'D the glorious dick head of all
good men (looks down, its in repose now), ...when all we had
here with the OP was an accute case of cranial rectal
inversion.

 You see my reply to this person of course... see how
phucking NICE I was...

No doubt I will be rewarded generously  :)

 Phil Scott

> > Dear experts,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> >
> > Thanks a lot
dundonald - 24 Jul 2004 22:38 GMT
>> You dickhead.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>No doubt I will be rewarded generously  :)

30 days of fasting?  Why?

<snip>

--
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Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
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Phil Scott - 24 Jul 2004 22:50 GMT
> >> You dickhead.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> 30 days of fasting?  Why?

 I read the wrong book first.  and I are an egineer... 'if a
little is good, overkill must be better'... I have not always
been a paragon of brilliance.

Phil Scott

> <snip>
>
> --
> http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com
> Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
> View my profile: (don't take the proverbial! :)

http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/member_profiles.php?username=Dundonald
Pet - 25 Jul 2004 09:41 GMT
> 30 days of fasting?  Why?

Perhaps he's really David Blaine!

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http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam!
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dundonald - 24 Jul 2004 21:36 GMT
>You dickhead.

Quality post there George, quality! ;)

--
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Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
View my profile: (don't take the proverbial! :)
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George UK - 25 Jul 2004 01:14 GMT
> >You dickhead.
>
> Quality post there George, quality! ;)

Sometimes laziness can be mistaken for genius.

Just a lazy post on my behalf.

The guy is a bit of a rude c.nt though.

Signature

George UK

dundonald - 25 Jul 2004 20:32 GMT
>> >You dickhead.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>The guy is a bit of a rude c.nt though.

:)

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com
Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
View my profile: (don't take the proverbial! :)
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Phil Scott - 24 Jul 2004 21:10 GMT
> Dear experts,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If a person fasts for, 32-36 hours, say from
> Thursday night, until Saturday morning,

Mostly water loss, instantly gained back on such a short
fast...and the induction of food cravings that are not
practically controllable..so a net weight gain.

I have fasted extensively..to vast benefit however...    you
need to read a few books on fasting, particularly raw
vegitable juice augmented fasting,  You can loose weight
fasting but the thats not a good use of fasting you will loose
both lean muscle and fat while fasting...

its very good for your health if done properly, fatal if not
done properly especially broken properly after more than 3
days on say water for instance  (I did 30 days on water alone
one time..not recommended, but useful for some things)
(Hunger btw totally abates after 5 or 7 days on water).  Again
I DO NOT recommend water fasting.   Raw juice fasting is
vastly better across the broad range of issues)

> What can the expected weight loss be for the this
> time period?
>
> Perhaps 10 glasses of water drunk through this
> time period.

 Get a few books on fasting.  You need plenty of water while
fasting to remove wastes.

> Remembering my high school science, there is
> the law of conservation of mass.

not applicable to fasting.

> Applied to eating, this means, that to gain
> 10 pounds, you must consume at least 10
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> the fast, etc.  Or about exercise, red herrings,
> or other variables that are not in the question.

  All those are integral parts your question... none of these
issues operate in isolation.
Your attempt to isolate the fasting from other factors such as
metablism simply doesnt apply... there is always metabolism
and the amount of excercise you do, walking, even thinking
etc..bears directly on the answers you seek.

  Ok lets try to oblige you... you are going to fast say
strapped to a bed so you cant move a muscle, and drink 10
glasses of water over 36 hours or so.. what will the loss
be....  answer.  virtually zero since you have burned very
little fat off.. assuming you were not thinking much either...
to get a firm figure you would measure the heat loss from your
body (there are formula's related to how cool the room is
etc)...how much heat is lost in respiration...and in the
excement..and you could get a close figure... Id say maybe the
equivalent of 4 oz of fat... except as you were not moving,
muscle would have been used for fuel too...so maybe 2 oz of
fat and 2 oz of muscle.

I broke a leg motorcycle racing at the Placer County Fair
grounds in 1980 one time...the leg was in a cast for 6 weeks.
It shunk drastically, I was lean and mean then, all muscle...
I lost Id day at least half the muscle in that leg in just 6
weeks due to the immobilization.

So you see, excercise is a crucial aspect ...further more the
loss of muscle then reduces the capacity of your calorie
burning machine...so that when you go back on regular eating,
the same amount of food then creates fat instead of being
burned... so you see...its all relevant after all.

Best you should read some books on the subject... asking for
short isolated snippets from the NG will not suffice,
especially if you anounce in advance that you are not
interested in the linked, and absolutely vital collateral
issues.

> Please also don't bother talking about
> whether this is adviseable or not.

a 36 hour fast is almost not even a fast at all in fasting
circles...I call it a fast though... but you really dont see
much immediate and lasing benefit until 3 days, thats 72
hours. ..and that needs in my experience to be repeated for 6
months or more to reverse a condition noticeably  Recent
research however shows that fsating one day a week improves
longevity by 30% or so...so there is a long term benefit.

> Just the answer please.

  An 'answer' out of context with its vitally related issues
is not really meaningful...it might be an answer, but out of
context, that answer is largely or entirely meaningless.

> Hopefully based on some kind of science or
> experience, not speculation.

   My answers were based on 30 years experience, fasting,
supervising fasts in others, and reading many books on fasting
and a few hundred collateral and other health issues...  but
the fact is, until man has reached an all knowing pinacle (and
currently we have just the barest clues) everything discussed
contains countless seeds of assumption and speculation.

  Your best bet is to educate yourself...and thats done by
your own reading, and personal trials ...and asking questions,
but only as the lesser feature.

Phil Scott

> Thanks a lot
Mike Collins - 24 Jul 2004 21:48 GMT
I have found that hunger disappears after about 24h of fasting.
Most people in the western world are addicted to caffiene. If you fast
without caffiene you will feel more tired and there's about a 50/50 chance
that you will also have very bad headaches.
A coffee, water and vitamin pill fast will leave yoiu feeling better but I
don't recommend it..
Most of the weight lost in the first couple of days of fasting will be the
contents of your guts which you will flush down the toilet - (the contents
not the guts).
Signature

Mike Collins
UK
Mike&heather-at-oakwellmount-dot-freeserve-dot-co-dot-uk

Roger Lepine - 26 Jul 2004 04:03 GMT
Thanks for the answer.  Although, you told me all the things
that I pretty much knew anyway.

Just for everyone's info, I do exercise.  It's just that during
the 36 hour fast, I didn't exercise.  I know that I would be
much too hungry otherwise.  I normally eat after working out
and feel really tired if I don't.  Also, my body needs the
protein after working out.  

> > Here's an interesting question for you.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> fast...and the induction of food cravings that are not
> practically controllable..so a net weight gain.

No, I can feel my waist getting thinner, and my pants getting
looser.  

> (I did 30 days on water alone
> one time..not recommended, but useful for some things)
> (Hunger btw totally abates after 5 or 7 days on water).  Again
> I DO NOT recommend water fasting.   Raw juice fasting is
> vastly better across the broad range of issues)

So you speak from good experience.  

How much weight did you lose on this fast over the 30 days?

> > Remembering my high school science, there is
> > the law of conservation of mass.
> > With this physics, you cannot eat a few ounzes,
> > and gain a few pounds.

I already know that there are many variables.  Of course there are.

But ultimately, given these same variables, there will be a
relevant range.

Could I expect to lose:

5 grams?
5 ounzes?
5 pounds?
5 kilograms?

I'm sure we will all agree that 50 kilograms is out of the relevant
range.  Although, I'm sure there is a speculator out there somewhere
who would caution that it -could- in fact happen in 36 hours.  Duh.  

If I fast once a week, for six months, other things being equal,
what would the realistic weight loss be?  Per week, on average?
Ignoramus14306 - 26 Jul 2004 04:41 GMT
> If I fast once a week, for six months, other things being equal,
> what would the realistic weight loss be?  Per week, on average?

If you eat exactly as you would eat on the 7 days of eating per week
weight maintaining diet, but skip one day of eating, you can roughly
expect to lose about 0.6 lbs per week if you are like me. The
difficult part, of course, is to not overeat on the remaining days.

I sometimes fast one day per week.

i
Spammers_Should_Be_Shot - 26 Jul 2004 04:43 GMT
> Thanks for the answer.  Although, you told me all the things
> that I pretty much knew anyway.
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> If I fast once a week, for six months, other things being equal,
> what would the realistic weight loss be?  Per week, on average?

12.71 lbs. total (or .489lbs/wk) ..... Geez, aren't you listening?!?!?!
Heywood Mogroot - 26 Jul 2004 15:15 GMT
> > If I fast once a week, for six months, other things being equal,
> > what would the realistic weight loss be?  Per week, on average?
>
> 12.71 lbs. total (or .489lbs/wk) ..... Geez, aren't you listening?!?!?!

that's assuming the loss is from fat, not muscle. Not a safe
assumption when one is talking about starvation.
Ignoramus19431 - 26 Jul 2004 16:15 GMT
>> > If I fast once a week, for six months, other things being equal,
>> > what would the realistic weight loss be?  Per week, on average?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that's assuming the loss is from fat, not muscle. Not a safe
> assumption when one is talking about starvation.

One day fast is not starvation.

i
Chris Braun - 24 Jul 2004 22:27 GMT
>Given: a standard 2000 calorie diet.  
>Activity:  normal office activity, no exercise
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Perhaps 10 glasses of water drunk through this
>time period.  

You will probably lose a few pounds from dehydration.  You could
possibly lose a little under one pound of fat.  To lose one pound of
fat, you must burn 3500 calories more than you consume.  If you
normally maintain your weight on 2000 calories a day, a 1.5 day fast
would give you a 3000 calorie deficit -- not quite one pound's worth.
Anything else you see on the scale is water loss, to be quickly
regained.

So many factors go into determining exactly what one will weigh at a
given moment that whatever you see on the scale after a short fast
won't be statistically significant anyway.

Chris
262/143/ (145-150)
Ignoramus32355 - 25 Jul 2004 00:40 GMT
I am a 172 lbs man. When I fast for 36 hours, drinking all water I
want, I lose 3 lbs. In the next few days, abount 2.3 of those pounds
come back. If I eat more, all 3 lost pounds come back. About 0.6 lbs
is the actual fat loss, the rest if transient effects.

i

> Dear experts,
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Thanks a lot
Patricia Heil - 25 Jul 2004 02:45 GMT
Start an exercise program or you won't be healthy no
matter how much weight you lose.

> Dear experts,
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Thanks a lot
Jay Tanzman - 28 Jul 2004 02:14 GMT
> Given: a standard 2000 calorie diet.  
> Activity:  normal office activity, no exercise
> Weight:  200 pounds, male.
>
> If a person fasts for, 32-36 hours, say from
> Thursday night, until Saturday morning,

2000 kcal/day x 1.5 days = 3000 kcal

One pound of fat contains about 3000 kcal, so if you didn't lose any lean body
mass, you'd lose about 1 lb.  You will, of course lose some lean body mass,
and lean body mass is heavier per kcal than fat, so the 1 lb. is probably an
underestimate.

-Jay
Bully - 28 Jul 2004 07:51 GMT
>> Given: a standard 2000 calorie diet.
>> Activity:  normal office activity, no exercise
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> lean body mass, you'd lose about 1 lb.  You will, of course lose some
> lean body mass, and lean body mass is heavier per kcal than fat,

Can you explain that please?

> so
> the 1 lb. is probably an underestimate.
>
> -Jay

Signature

Bully
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Doug Freyburger - 28 Jul 2004 19:19 GMT
> > > Given: a standard 2000 calorie diet.
> > > Activity:  normal office activity, no exercise
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Can you explain that please?

Do you mean explain that a pound of lean muscle has more calories
than a pound of fat?  In the simple sense of protein being 4
calories per gram and fat being 9 calories per gram it isn't true.
To burn 2000 calories worth of fat it's 2000/9 = 222 grams or a
half pound.  To burn 2000 calories worth of muscle it's 2000/4
= 500 grams or over a pound.  Actually, fat includes plenty of
protein and some fat and fat includes some protein, so the actual
numbers are a bit closer.

Do you mean that the body will burn muscle rather than fat in the
short term?  It's an evolutionary issue.  Our ancestors saw plenty
of short term famines and fewer long term ones.  To survive a
famine the body needs to start out by preserving the fat that will
be needed later in the long famine.  Combine this with the fact
that muscle burns far more fuel than fat and it comes out that
muscle should be lost faster than muscle in any short term loss
scenario.

This is why lean loss happens to anyone who tries to lose too fast.
It triggers muscle loss not fat loss.  If the long term goal is
to keep it off what is actually lost needs to be fat not muscle.
Losing fat triggers less rebound and so on.
Ignoramus5882 - 28 Jul 2004 19:22 GMT
*  Bully wrote:
* > Jay Tanzman wrote:
* > > Roger Lepine wrote:
* >
* > > > Given: a standard 2000 calorie diet.
* > > > Activity:  normal office activity, no exercise
* > > > Weight:  200 pounds, male.
* > > > If a person fasts for, 32-36 hours, say from
* > > > Thursday night, until Saturday morning,
* >
* > > 2000 kcal/day x 1.5 days = 3000 kcal
* >
* > > One pound of fat contains about 3000 kcal, so if you didn't lose any
* > > lean body mass, you'd lose about 1 lb.  You will, of course lose some
* > > lean body mass, and lean body mass is heavier per kcal than fat,
* >
* > Can you explain that please?
*  
*  Do you mean explain that a pound of lean muscle has more calories
*  than a pound of fat?  In the simple sense of protein being 4
*  calories per gram and fat being 9 calories per gram it isn't true.
*  To burn 2000 calories worth of fat it's 2000/9 = 222 grams or a
*  half pound.  To burn 2000 calories worth of muscle it's 2000/4
* = 500 grams or over a pound.  Actually, fat includes plenty of
*  protein and some fat and fat includes some protein, so the actual
*  numbers are a bit closer.

Muscle is not pure protein, but rather protein with water. About one
calorie per gram if it is not marbled.

i
Steve Freides - 30 Jul 2004 02:14 GMT
> Dear experts,
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> Hopefully based on some kind of science or
> experience, not speculation.

See http://www.kbnj.com/wd.htm for information about the Warrior Diet.
I follow this approach, and I fast until dinner most days, usually
drinking only water although sometimes drinking tea or coffee, and once
in a while having a small amount of a healthy snack such as nuts.  The
research about alternating cycles of over- and under-eating continues to
grow.  A recent animal study, using one day of fasting alternated with
one day of completely unrestricted eating, showed improvements in both
leanness and gaining muscle mass.

It's worth mentioning that, until you get used to not eating for
relatively long periods of time, your body will just go into what some
people call "starvation mode" and you will burn fewer calories than you
usually do.  It's quite possible not to lose much weight at all doing
what you suggest, and to find your weight right back to where you
started 48 hours after you start eating again.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 
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