I know that this may seem a little far fetched but please bear with me.
If this is a post in the wrong group and I sound like a nut, please
point me to the correct place.
The reason I am asking this question is the fact that calorie's
definition (1 calorie is the amount of energy necessary to increase the
temperature of 1g of water with 1 degree C) seems to refer to the
process of burning.
Which brings some questions for me:
- isn't applying the same energy units to the body an
oversimplification? after all, the calorie unit seems to refer to a
simple thermodynamics system and not to a complex
bio-chemo-electro-psycho-mechanical one. we are not simply burning the
food - or we would probably be drinking kerosene.
- how do we define the amount of calories in food? do scientists burn
every conceivable eatable substance and measure the heat? or, is the
measure based on the units of fat/sugars/etc. which have clearly
defined calorie amounts? (and, how are the calorie amounts in these
basic ingredients determined? burning and measuring heat?)
- are calories from different eatable ingredients equal? obviously 1000
calories from sugar != 1000 calories from saturated fat != 1000
calories from lean beaf != 1000 calories from an overprocessed, salt-
and sugar- and preservative-packed fast food meal
... even more, how will the body absorb 1000 calories from one basic
ingredient vs. 500 calories of sugar + 500 calories of fat (a
combination)? what about different combinations?
>From all I've seen, the energy is being measured before intake. But
Thermodynamics is all about energy. Are you saying no energy is involved in
metabolism? Then you probably need to read a basic biology textbook,
particularly the parts on how energy is transferred around a living
organism.
> I know that this may seem a little far fetched but please bear with me.
> If this is a post in the wrong group and I sound like a nut, please
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> Thank you.
> -- Andre
andre a. - 05 Aug 2004 01:18 GMT
I am saying that the movement of energy in the metabolism of the body
is not identical with burning fuel in an open flame. Therefore the
logic of applying identical energy units to very different systems with
different complexity escapes me.
Please reply if you have an answer to my questions and point me to the
science behind this logic.
Thank you.
-- Andre
> Thermodynamics is all about energy. Are you saying no energy is involved in
> metabolism? Then you probably need to read a basic biology textbook,
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> > Thank you.
> > -- Andre
GaryG - 05 Aug 2004 01:38 GMT
> I am saying that the movement of energy in the metabolism of the body
> is not identical with burning fuel in an open flame. Therefore the
> logic of applying identical energy units to very different systems with
> different complexity escapes me.
Get a high school biology text book, or do some online searches. Calories
are simply a measure of how much "energy" is contained within a substance.
How they are measured (i.e., "open flame") is not relevant. Kerosene has an
energy content that can be expressed in calories, but our bodies are not
designed to "burn" kerosene (unlike, for instance, sugar or fats).
1000 calories of sugar provides the same amount of energy to the body as
1000 calories from fish, brocolli, whatever. Our bodies digest them
differently, but the energy yield would be the same.
Read this for more:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002457.htm
BTW - things like "chi" and "prana" are superstitions based on ancient
beliefs about how the body worked, but without any scientific basis
whatsoever.
> Please reply if you have an answer to my questions and point me to the
> science behind this logic.
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
> > > Thank you.
> > > -- Andre
Heywood Mogroot - 05 Aug 2004 16:20 GMT
> 1000 calories of sugar provides the same amount of energy to the body as
> 1000 calories from fish, brocolli, whatever. Our bodies digest them
> differently, but the energy yield would be the same.
exactly? I highly doubt it. Whether or not there's a significant
difference is an interesting question, but it's rather naive to assume
that our complicated physiology is a linear system.
> BTW - things like "chi" and "prana" are superstitions based on ancient
> beliefs about how the body worked, but without any scientific basis
> whatsoever.
things that come out of left field, outside of the western scientific
tradition, are not necessarily false by default though.
The concepts involved may be total bs, but the true scientific test is
how these alternative approaches obtain real world results; there may
be yet things to be learned from all these eastern and nativist
traditions.
GaryG - 05 Aug 2004 16:48 GMT
> > 1000 calories of sugar provides the same amount of energy to the body as
> > 1000 calories from fish, brocolli, whatever. Our bodies digest them
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> difference is an interesting question, but it's rather naive to assume
> that our complicated physiology is a linear system.
Granted...I think this would be an interesting area for research, but I
suspect the effective energy utilizations would be very close no matter the
source. Evolution has adapted our bodies to extract the maximum energy from
a wide variety of sources. One day our caveman ancestors might have
consumed nothing but meat from an animal they killed or found. Another day,
they might only eat a bunch of honey from a beehive they raided. Our bodies
have the ability to adapt to this and extract what they need from these very
different sources of energy.
> > BTW - things like "chi" and "prana" are superstitions based on ancient
> > beliefs about how the body worked, but without any scientific basis
> > whatsoever.
>
> things that come out of left field, outside of the western scientific
> tradition, are not necessarily false by default though.
Agreed. Unlike religious and magical beliefs, one of the hallmarks of
scientific thinking is that previously held beliefs can be challenged and
overturned. This, I think, is one of the fundamental strengths of the
scientific method. Unfortunately, it seems to cause consternation among
people looking for concrete answers when new knowledge replaces old.
> The concepts involved may be total bs, but the true scientific test is
> how these alternative approaches obtain real world results; there may
> be yet things to be learned from all these eastern and nativist
> traditions.
Studied, yes. Tested, certainly. But most of these ancient traditions have
had hundreds of years in which to prove their scientific validity, yet they
have not been able to do so. They live on as religious beliefs, taken on
faith alone, but are unable to "obtain real world results".
GG
Ignoramus11472 - 05 Aug 2004 02:16 GMT
> I am saying that the movement of energy in the metabolism of the body
> is not identical with burning fuel in an open flame. Therefore the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Please reply if you have an answer to my questions and point me to the
> science behind this logic.
My understanding is as follows. Calories can be measured by burning
dry food in a calorimeter.
The human body is not a 100% efficient system for burning calories.
So, if you eat, say, 1000 calories, you may end up producing 50
calories in mechanical energy (walking, moving around etc), say 600
calories heat, and expel 350 unburned calories in your feces. The
numbers are hypothetical.
Besides that, as you pointed out, not all material can be used by our
bodies.
For example, if you eat an ounce of sawdust, that whole ounce would
come out of you undigested because we lack enzymes to digest
cellulose. That's 0% efficiency.
No, human body is not identical to an open flame. Also, many open
flames are also not 100% efficient and produce unburned soot and
carbon monoxide.
i
> The reason I am asking this question is the fact that calorie's
> definition (1 calorie is the amount of energy necessary to increase the
> temperature of 1g of water with 1 degree C) seems to refer to the
> process of burning.
The first thing you need to know is that food Calories are actually
kilocalories -- 1000 of those energy calories.
Biochemistry does indeed involve basically burning those calories
for energy. Scientists do burn foods in calorimeters, and
things that burn but people can't digest are subtracted.
1000 calories of fat/sugar/protein will differ in how your body
uses or stores the calories depending on its needs, but they
still contain the same amount of potential energy or stored fat.
There are minimal differences in absorbtion and wastage from person
to person, but they're not significant except in cases of diseased
or damaged digestive systems.
As to your question of "prana", since it's a belief "energy" and
not something measurable, there's no way to tell if it exists
much less whether it affects your food.
Organically grown veggies are not proven to be more nutritious than
not organically-grown ones. Personally, I avoid organic veggies,
because the popular notion that they don't use pesticides is false.
Organic farms are allowed to, and do use so-called "natural"
pesticides, including copper sulfate, rotenone, and pyrethrum.
Modern commercial organophosphate pesticides break down in several
days of sunlight and water, and typically leave no measurable residue
by harvest. This cannot be said for the pesticides used by organic
farms. Organic vegetables that grow at ground level, such as lettuces,
have also been found to be contaminated with E coli bacteria from
improperly cured manure.

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jamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com)
"There's a seeker born every minute."
Heywood Mogroot - 05 Aug 2004 20:00 GMT
> There are minimal differences in absorbtion and wastage from person
> to person, but they're not significant except in cases of diseased
> or damaged digestive systems.
I'd like to see evidence of this. One scuttlebutt thing is that the
ingestion of fat *with* carbs is more fattening than either the same
caloric load of fat or carbs separately.
I doubt this is necessarily true, but I think the OP raises some
interesting questions, and it seems the atkins people have some
science on their side about the 'calorie is a calorie is a calorie'
myth.
> The reason I am asking this question is the fact that calorie's
> definition (1 calorie is the amount of energy necessary to increase the
> temperature of 1g of water with 1 degree C) seems to refer to the
> process of burning.
In scientific term, burning (as in, producing a flame) is just one of the
form energy liberation can take. The general process is oxidation and
reduction (redox). When you burn something in open air, what you actually do
is oxide the something and reducing the oxygen. For instance, 2H2 + O2 ->
2H20. It's actually a transfer of electrons. The human body relies on a
number of redox reaction to use the energy from nutriments. The calorimeter
also relies on a specific redox reaction : combining things with oxygen (aka
burning).
> Which brings some questions for me:
> - isn't applying the same energy units to the body an
> oversimplification? after all, the calorie unit seems to refer to a
> simple thermodynamics system and not to a complex
> bio-chemo-electro-psycho-mechanical one. we are not simply burning the
> food - or we would probably be drinking kerosene.
It's not an oversimplification, because it's exactly the same. Burning and
metabolical process are both redox reactions. The first (or is it second?)
thermodynamic principle assess that whatever the chemical path from A to B,
the energy in the system remains the same. This means, there is no creation
or loss of energy, just transfer of it. So, the simple burning path is
energetically equivalent to the complex biological path. If you watch what
goes on with your lung, it's obvious : in goes O2, out goes CO2. All that
complex path actually amounts to burning something with oxygen and rejecting
carbon dioxide.
> - how do we define the amount of calories in food? do scientists burn
> every conceivable eatable substance and measure the heat?
Yes. Then, they substract stuff the human beings cannot digest (fibers).
This has been calibrated by putting human beings in large calorimeters, not
to burn them, but to measure their metabolism (influx of O2, output of CO2).
> or, is the
> measure based on the units of fat/sugars/etc. which have clearly
> defined calorie amounts? (and, how are the calorie amounts in these
> basic ingredients determined? burning and measuring heat?)
Some industrials use a calorimeter, but most recipes are calculated as the
sum of the calories of their base constituants.
> - are calories from different eatable ingredients equal? obviously 1000
> calories from sugar != 1000 calories from saturated fat != 1000
> calories from lean beaf != 1000 calories from an overprocessed, salt-
> and sugar- and preservative-packed fast food meal
Energetically, yes. Not difference whatsoever. Energy is energy. As long as
it can be digested, it's broken down into elementary constituants.
> ... even more, how will the body absorb 1000 calories from one basic
> ingredient vs. 500 calories of sugar + 500 calories of fat (a
> combination)? what about different combinations?
It will just break down the whole mess, until it has stuff it can burn, and
in the end, it will have an equal number of calories.
Note that we're only talking end product and energy! First, breaking down a
simple nutriment will be faster than breaking down a mix (especially with
fats, they tend to slow down things quite a bit). The total amount of energy
will be the same, but in the first case it will be available in a short
burst, while in the second it will be over a longer time. Also, our body
uses nutriments for other stuff than energy, like building and repairing
cells. From this point of view, the second case will be better, because the
body needs vitamins and fatty acids available in fat.
> >From all I've seen, the energy is being measured before intake. But
> different bodies in different condition and level of health, age and
> activity will absorb the same food in a different manner. Then wow can
> one measurement unit be OK for everyone?
There is very little variation there, unless you have a really non standard
body or condition (obesity surgery to shorten the intestine, allergy to some
of the food, diarrhea, anti-sugar drugs, anti-fat drugs...). And even if
there are variations from one person to another, a given person will remain
fairly constant in her assimilation ratio.
> Will a tomato organically grown from rich soil in a sunny
> garden, provide the same amount of energy as one conventionally grown?
No, because the one grown in the rich soil and sunny garden will have more
calories ;) A calorie table is only an average. In gives general orders,
like a tomatoe is rather low in calories, poor in proteins... But the
tomatoe grown in rich soil and high exposure to sun will tend to have a
higher sugar content. Likewise, if it lacked water, it will be more
concentrated and have higher sugar content. That's why wine is better when
it is on the side of the hill that gets the sun and on years that have had a
little dryness in the last weeks before the harvest : higher sugar content,
that will lead to more alcool. During the last year in France, with the very
high temperatures and dryness, some fruits (those that survived) had a 30%
higher sugar content for instance...
This has nothing to do with organic or not. It's just that food used to be a
living thing, and as such it has individual variations and depends on its
envirronment. If we feed you a sumo diet, you will be more caloric than the
average human being, because you will be fatter.