Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / August 2004
Only calories matter?
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Ignoramus5937 - 11 Aug 2004 19:52 GMT What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
Obese children who were fed a low carb diet lost weight and improved blood lipids. These children also ate 66% more calories than controls, who ate "heart healthy" starches and whole grains. What a surprise.
Medline ID 15148063
Sondike S, Jacobson, Copperman. The ketogenic diet increases weight loss but not cardiovascular risk: A randomized controlled trial. J Adolescent Health Care 2000; 26: 91.
Schneider Children?s Hospital in New Hyde Park, N.Y
This study was conducted on overweight children aged 12 to 18. They were between 20 and 100 pounds overweight. The children were split into two groups. One group ate a conventional low-fat, carbohydrate based "slimming" diet composed of whole grains, fruits and vegetables with fat-free dairy products, low-fat meats, poultry and fish. Their total intake was limited to 1,100 calories per day. The other group ate a high-fat, low-carb diet in which they were allowed to eat as many calories as they wanted in the form of untrimmed meat, cheese, eggs, poultry and fish. Their carbohydrates came from two salads a day and minimal other carbs. RESULTS Despite consuming on average 66% more calories per day, after 12 weeks the children consuming the low-carbohydrate diet lost more weight than those following the low-fat, high-carb plan: Low-carb Low-fat Calorie intake 1830 1100 Weight loss 19 lbs 8.5 lbs HDL Increased Decreased Triglycerides -52% -10%
As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on kidneys and liver, kidney and liver functions were regularly monitored. They were found to be unaffected by this diet.
COMMENT: Six to twelve months later, most of the low-carb dieters had maintained their new lower weight. This study provides additional evidence for the efficacy of a low-carb weight loss programme specifically for the most vulnerable group ? teenagers.
Bob in CT - 11 Aug 2004 20:06 GMT > What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing. > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > evidence for the efficacy of a low-carb weight loss programme > specifically for the most vulnerable group ? teenagers. I think this is a great result (and in line with every other result regarding low carb), but unless they counted calories for the kids before putting them on the diet then counted calories for the kids after they put them on the diet, the calorie difference isn't really scientific.
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Ignoramus5937 - 11 Aug 2004 20:20 GMT >> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing. >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > putting them on the diet then counted calories for the kids after they put > them on the diet, the calorie difference isn't really scientific. Well, these were two groups of children dieters, assigned randomly. The low carb kids ate a lot more calories than the conventionally dieting kids.
That low carb children could eat more, surprised me.
i
Bob in CT - 11 Aug 2004 20:33 GMT >>> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing. >>> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > i Actually, almost every study that looks at calories and low carb comes up with the same results. However, some people are adamant (sp?) that if you took these people and put them in chambers to measure every calorie, there's no difference in low carb and high carb. There was one study that used twins and did this and determined no difference between low and high carb. However, most studies support the "low carb = more weight loss" hypothesis. Have you seen these:
Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in Adult Women during Weight Loss (Journal Abstract) Added on: 4/29/2003 Hits: 263 From the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and the Journal of Nutrition, 2003: In this study, researchers placed two groups of women on two diets, each of which was equal in calories and fat. One group was on a high protein, low carbohydrate diet and the second was on the USDA's low protein, high carbohydrate diet. The researchers noted that both groups lost 16 pounds on average, but the low carbohydrate, high protein group lost more body fat and less lean body mass than did the USDA food pyramid group. The researchers also noted that women in the high protein group had more stable glucose levels,lower insulin levels, and lower cholesterol levels.
High-Protein Beats High-Carbohydrate for Weight Loss in Low-Fat Diets (Magazine Article) Added on: 12/27/2002 Hits: 1145 From the Arizona State University and the the Doctor's Guide, 2002: This team of researchers compared the thermogenic effects of two different low fat diets. The first low fat diet was high in protein and the second was high in carbohydrate. The researchers found that the study participants' body temperature and resting energy expenditure was 100% greater after eating high protein meals that after eating high carbohydrate meals. They concluded that the thermogenesis that occurs after high-protein meals may partially explain the effectiveness of high-protein diets for weight loss.
(From http://www.lowcarbresearch.org/lcr/results.asp?catid=199)
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Ignoramus5937 - 11 Aug 2004 20:42 GMT > Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in > Adult Women during Weight Loss (Journal Abstract) Added on: 4/29/2003 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > more stable glucose levels,lower insulin levels, and lower cholesterol > levels. interesting
> > High-Protein Beats High-Carbohydrate for Weight Loss in Low-Fat Diets [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > high in carbohydrate. The researchers found that the study participants' > body temperature and resting energy expenditure was 100% greater after they had 100% greater body TEMPERATURE???
like, 194 degrees fahrenheit as opposed to normal 97????
they were very "well done" by that time, huh... Yummy, well done, low carb dieters. Were they served with gravy?
must be some mistake somewhere.
i
> eating high protein meals that after eating high carbohydrate meals. They > concluded that the thermogenesis that occurs after high-protein meals may > partially explain the effectiveness of high-protein diets for weight loss. > > (From http://www.lowcarbresearch.org/lcr/results.asp?catid=199) Bob in CT - 11 Aug 2004 21:16 GMT >> Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in >> Adult Women during Weight Loss (Journal Abstract) Added on: 4/29/2003 [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > i These are interpreted by the lady who keeps up the site, but she provides the links so that you can go read the actual study. I think she means that there was an elevated temperature and 100% greater resting energy expenditure.
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Tom - 11 Aug 2004 22:31 GMT Based on my own experience. I did notice right away that on the lo-carb diet, I wasn't feeling cold like I had been on regular low fat/low cal. diets. Perhaps there is a metabolic advantage with higher protein. Tom 210/180/180 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in > > Adult Women during Weight Loss (Journal Abstract) Added on: 4/29/2003 [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > > > (From http://www.lowcarbresearch.org/lcr/results.asp?catid=199) jbuch - 12 Aug 2004 01:08 GMT >>>> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > (From http://www.lowcarbresearch.org/lcr/results.asp?catid=199) Sounds like it should have been stated as:
The researchers found that the study participants' body temperature was greater after eating high protein meals compared to those eating high carb meals. They also found that after eating high protein meals the resting energy expenditure was 100% greater for the low carb group than the high carb group.
The temptation to save a few words in an abstract created a potential for confusion.
Nice article....
Thanks for drawing attention to it.
Jim
revek - 12 Aug 2004 01:07 GMT Ignoramus5937 generously shared with us this little ditty:
> Well, these were two groups of children dieters, assigned > randomly. The low carb kids ate a lot more calories than the > conventionally dieting kids. > > That low carb children could eat more, surprised me. Why?
 Signature revek The probability of forgetting something is directly proportional to .... to .... uh ....
Lictor - 12 Aug 2004 15:28 GMT > Well, these were two groups of children dieters, assigned > randomly. The low carb kids ate a lot more calories than the > conventionally dieting kids. That might also be a problem. 1100 calories is very low. You don't always have a linear rate of loss. Like, the rate is faster with VLC diets than with pure fasting, because the body doesn't go as hard into economy mode. Having the low-fat sample on such a low calorie diet while the low-carb sample is not could introduce a bias, like one sample being in starvation mode and not the other. It would have been better if they had only changed one parameter, the diet, while remaining at constant caloric level. It would also have been nice to have a balanced diet thrown in the sample, in order to better discriminate between the diets. I'm still wondering if the good results of low carbing are because they lower the carbs (compared to a normal diet) or just because they don't cut the fats beyond the level of a normal diet. Having a normal low-caloric diet in the sample might have shown that. During my initial weight loss, I had a pretty fast curve, like 6kg the first month. I was on a normal diet (that is, eating the normal food for my country - around the same amount of calories from fats and carbs) with hunger control, so it's hard to know the exact number of calories, but I would say I was around 1800 a day. So, it was possible to get a good rate of weight loss, at least during the first couple of months, without cutting the carbs and without getting the calories very low (though certainly much lower than what I ate before!).
Bob in CT - 12 Aug 2004 15:36 GMT >> Well, these were two groups of children dieters, assigned >> randomly. The low carb kids ate a lot more calories than the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > lower > than what I ate before!). Plus, when you're talking kids between those age ranges, randomly assigning them might not be a great idea. When I was teen and I was on the football team, I ate a ton. One 17 year old male who's physically active (even if overweight) could really skew the results. One would think the authors of the study took this into consideration, but you never know.
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julianne - 11 Aug 2004 23:50 GMT How many children were in the study? Did it say anywhere?
I believe almost everyone could do with fewer carbs than the typical US diet offers. I am also of the mindset that anything can be done to extreme.
I look forward to more information being developed about the glycemic index. It seems to me that the type of carbs one chooses are more important than the source of carbs. And, I am always amazed at how some foods stack up! Bananas - high glycemic index. Canteloupe - low. Snickers, because of the nuts are interestingly low. Whole grains and brown rice do not fair much better than their pale counterparts.
Off to make a low carb dinner with just enough carbs to keep me happy and not enough to cause my blood sugar to swing.
j
> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing. > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > evidence for the efficacy of a low-carb weight loss programme > specifically for the most vulnerable group ? teenagers. Ignoramus5937 - 12 Aug 2004 00:36 GMT > How many children were in the study? Did it say anywhere? 120.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15148063
> I believe almost everyone could do with fewer carbs than the typical US diet > offers. I am also of the mindset that anything can be done to extreme. good mindset.
> I look forward to more information being developed about the glycemic index. > It seems to me that the type of carbs one chooses are more important than > the source of carbs. And, I am always amazed at how some foods stack up! > Bananas - high glycemic index. Canteloupe - low. Snickers, because of the > nuts are interestingly low. Whole grains and brown rice do not fair much > better than their pale counterparts. I am, personally, skeptical about glycemic index as a useful concept.
Probably, oatmeal is better than coca-cola, but between these extremes, digestion depends on a million of factors.
> Off to make a low carb dinner with just enough carbs to keep me happy and > not enough to cause my blood sugar to swing. good for you...
do you know any successful long term low carbers?
i
> j >> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> evidence for the efficacy of a low-carb weight loss programme >> specifically for the most vulnerable group ? teenagers. Lictor - 12 Aug 2004 15:38 GMT > I am, personally, skeptical about glycemic index as a useful concept. It depends if you are diabetic or not ;) Though I do agree it's only informative. It depends a lot on the whole composition of the meal, not of individual items. But it has a great educative value, and some true surprises (like, chocolate being rather low or industrial mashed potatoes being higher than sugar). Actually, I think the interresting part of GI is *what* can change the GI of a given food item (fats, proteins, acidity...). Like, the fact that acidity can lower GI dramatically, hence sourdough can be an alternative to wholewheat bread. What is also very interresting is looking at traditionnal cooking using that knowledge. Many traditionnal recipes are actually the best way to lower the GI of the food. Just have a look at Spanish paella : rice cooked in fat by absoption (= "al dente") along with proteins, fibers and some lemon juice. Likewise, a good Indian curry *requires* an acid base and some fat. France cooked beans in fat (duck fat, lard). There are many similar recipes.
Ignoramus14701 - 12 Aug 2004 16:14 GMT >> I am, personally, skeptical about glycemic index as a useful concept. > > It depends if you are diabetic or not ;) I am not a diabetic, but my dad is (officially diagnosed, not just by the home test), and so I am reading about diabetes as I am sure that I myself am insulin resistant. (this is, again, based on objective glucose tolerance tests and not conjecture).
So I have been reading about this stuff, and it appears that GI is very substantially modified by a few things, such as:
1. What else is eaten.
2. For starchy foods, how long this food item was boiled
3. For fibery foods, just how much this item was broken up before eating. E.g, a whole apple vs an apple paste from a blender.
All food processing involved in making "healthy food choices" is done to increase GI. The mashing, drying, etc, all raise GI. So they take healthy oat bran, shred it to tiny bits, precook, dry, and then present this as healthy oat bran made food, but in fact it is not the original oat bran as it would appear in a hot oat bran cereal.
So, I personally try to stay away from the concept of GI as it would mislead me.
> Actually, I think the interresting part of GI is *what* can change the GI of > a given food item (fats, proteins, acidity...). Like, the fact that acidity > can lower GI dramatically, hence sourdough can be an alternative to > wholewheat bread. Yep, that's one parameter that affects GI.
> What is also very interresting is looking at traditionnal cooking > using that knowledge. Many traditionnal recipes are actually the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > *requires* an acid base and some fat. France cooked beans in fat > (duck fat, lard). There are many similar recipes. Lard is also very tasty...
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Boemsi - 12 Aug 2004 17:36 GMT > What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing. > > Obese children who were fed a low carb diet lost weight and improved > blood lipids. These children also ate 66% more calories than controls, > who ate "heart healthy" starches and whole grains. What a surprise. Not at all. It's been known for some time that diets very low in fat make you loose less weight than if you allow a bit of healthy fats. So I don't find this is a very fair comparison. I also wonder about the long term effects of the high-protein diet on cholesterol and liver functions.
I recently read that drinking grapefruit juice with every mail can make you loose more weight, since the fibers it contain make you feel fuller for longer. But hardly anybody is on a grapefruit diet... IMO too much is bad, but so is too little. I'm still not convinced.
 Signature -- Boemsi 207 - 197 - 180
Ignoramus14701 - 12 Aug 2004 17:44 GMT >> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > find this is a very fair comparison. I also wonder about the long term > effects of the high-protein diet on cholesterol and liver functions. From the study that I mentioned:
``As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on kidneys and liver, kidney and liver fun ctions were regularly monitored. They were found to be unaffected by this diet.''
So, in that study, children had no impairment in liver or kidney.
> I recently read that drinking grapefruit juice with every mail can make > you loose more weight, since the fibers it contain make you feel fuller > for longer. But hardly anybody is on a grapefruit diet... IMO too much is > bad, but so is too little. I'm still not convinced. I am not completely convinced (about low carbing), but I am becoming more and more convinced that it is the real thing, and likely very suitable for people like me.
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Lictor - 12 Aug 2004 21:37 GMT > ``As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on > kidneys and liver, kidney and liver fun ctions were regularly > monitored. They were found to be unaffected by this diet.'' > > So, in that study, children had no impairment in liver or kidney. That was a 12 weeks study. I doubt *any* diet would manage to damage the liver or kidney in such a small amount of time, no matter how unbalanced. Both these organs are extremelly sturdy, it takes repeated assaults on them to finally cause them to malfunction. If one really wanted to see the health impacts of these diets, one would have to study them over several years, on a large population. That would be an interresting study in itself. I'm not convinced extreme low-fat is any healthier than extreme low-carb btw.
Ignoramus14701 - 13 Aug 2004 01:26 GMT >> ``As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on >> kidneys and liver, kidney and liver fun ctions were regularly [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a large population. That would be an interresting study in itself. I'm not > convinced extreme low-fat is any healthier than extreme low-carb btw. It would be an interesting study.
Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular people do.
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Boemsi - 13 Aug 2004 14:54 GMT > Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular > people do. Now you got me confused: if they don't eat more protein, and less carbs than regular people, where do they get their calories from? Regular to me means a 2200 calory diet..
 Signature -- Boemsi 207 - 196 - 180
Ignoramus23157 - 13 Aug 2004 14:59 GMT >> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular >> people do. > > Now you got me confused: if they don't eat more protein, and less carbs > than regular people, where do they get their calories from? Regular to me > means a 2200 calory diet.. They get more calories from fat, typically.
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julianne - 16 Aug 2004 12:12 GMT > >> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular > >> people do. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > i I don't know what typical low carbers do but I get an increased number of calories from protien. I have a protien shake daily with 25 grams of protien made with ff yogurt and occasionally some canteloupe or peanut butter. I center my diet around lean protien and low glycemic veggies. Although I am not disciplined enough to count anything including grams of carbs, I do sometimes enter my food into fitday. It usually shows that less than 20 percent of calories come from carbs, and 50 percent come from protien with the remaining coming from fat and alcohol (on the days I drink wine).
j
Ignoramus17574 - 16 Aug 2004 15:18 GMT >> >> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular >> >> people do. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > protien with the remaining coming from fat and alcohol (on the days I drink > wine). So, say, you eat 1500 calories per day (an assumption), that means that you get 750 calories from protein, that means that you are eating an equivalent of 1.6 lbs of lean turkey breast! That's a lot of protein you have to eat... Very impressive.
i
julianne - 23 Aug 2004 21:51 GMT let's see
breakfast
soy protien 25 gms yogurt 10 pb 8
snack egg 12 (?)
Lunch Chicken wrap 38
Dinner
Cheeseburger 30
That doesn't include any nuts or cheese I snack on during the day and comes to approx 500 calories from protien which is slightly less than half of what I take in (around 1100 - 1200) although I am deliberately increasing the amount of food I am taking in. When I was actively losing weight, the SBD sort of killed my appetite so there were probably several days each week that I didn't eat nearly as much as I should have.
j
> >> >> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular > >> >> people do. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > i Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 21:58 GMT > let's see > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Cheeseburger 30 that would be 123 grams of protein, or 492 calories. About 41%. Stil, quite a lot!
i
> That doesn't include any nuts or cheese I snack on during the day and comes > to approx 500 calories from protien which is slightly less than half of what [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> >> i Boemsi - 12 Aug 2004 21:50 GMT > From the study that I mentioned: > > ``As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on > kidneys and liver, kidney and liver fun ctions were regularly > monitored. They were found to be unaffected by this diet.'' As I said: long term effects. Meaning 10 to 20 years from now, and later, with the kids being on a sustained low-carb/high-protein regimen. Most of the bad effects of high fat don't become evident until much later in life, when your body is less 'adjustable'. Kid's bodies are often much more adept at adjusting with little or no impact (e.g. broken bones heal twice as fast in infants compared to adults, IYKWIM).
Unfortunately, the low-carb diet hasn't been around long enough to really understand its long term effects. In the long run we still have to see whether it is indeed more efficient, and at what costs. And by that I also mean at least 10 to 20 years from now. Of course, if the alternative is being severly obese, anything is better than that...
 Signature -- Boemsi 207 - 197 - 180
Ignoramus14701 - 13 Aug 2004 01:28 GMT >> From the study that I mentioned: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As I said: long term effects. Meaning 10 to 20 years from now, and later, > with the kids being on a sustained low-carb/high-protein regimen. Most of Low carb is not high protein. Most low carb people do not overeat protein for a very simple reason, protein is hard to overeat.
> the bad effects of high fat don't become evident until much later in > life, when your body is less 'adjustable'. Kid's bodies are often [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mean at least 10 to 20 years from now. Of course, if the alternative is > being severly obese, anything is better than that... Exactly. Like you, I would love to see more long term lowcarbers and see how they do. I actually asked for such people on alt.support.diet.low-carb recently. Some were lowcarbing for up to 15 years.
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