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Only calories matter?

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Ignoramus5937 - 11 Aug 2004 19:52 GMT
What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.

Obese children who were fed a low carb diet lost weight and improved
blood lipids. These children also ate 66% more calories than controls,
who ate "heart healthy" starches and whole grains. What a surprise.

Medline ID 15148063

Sondike S, Jacobson, Copperman. The ketogenic diet increases weight
loss but not cardiovascular risk: A randomized controlled trial. J
Adolescent Health Care 2000; 26: 91.

Schneider Children?s Hospital in New Hyde Park, N.Y

This study was conducted on overweight children aged 12 to 18. They
were between 20 and 100 pounds overweight. The children were split
into two groups. One group ate a conventional low-fat, carbohydrate
based "slimming" diet composed of whole grains, fruits and vegetables
with fat-free dairy products, low-fat meats, poultry and fish. Their
total intake was limited to 1,100 calories per day. The other group
ate a high-fat, low-carb diet in which they were allowed to eat as
many calories as they wanted in the form of untrimmed meat, cheese,
eggs, poultry and fish. Their carbohydrates came from two salads a day
and minimal other carbs.
RESULTS Despite consuming on average 66% more calories per day, after
12 weeks the children consuming the low-carbohydrate diet lost more
weight than those following the low-fat, high-carb plan:
Low-carb    Low-fat        
Calorie intake              1830        1100    
Weight loss                 19 lbs      8.5 lbs        
HDL    Increased            Decreased  
Triglycerides               -52%        -10%    

As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on
kidneys and liver, kidney and liver functions were regularly
monitored. They were found to be unaffected by this diet.

COMMENT: Six to twelve months later, most of the low-carb dieters had
maintained their new lower weight. This study provides additional
evidence for the efficacy of a low-carb weight loss programme
specifically for the most vulnerable group ? teenagers.
Bob in CT - 11 Aug 2004 20:06 GMT
> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> evidence for the efficacy of a low-carb weight loss programme
> specifically for the most vulnerable group ? teenagers.

I think this is a great result (and in line with every other result
regarding low carb), but unless they counted calories for the kids before
putting them on the diet then counted calories for the kids after they put
them on the diet, the calorie difference isn't really scientific.

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Bob in CT
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Ignoramus5937 - 11 Aug 2004 20:20 GMT
>> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> putting them on the diet then counted calories for the kids after they put
> them on the diet, the calorie difference isn't really scientific.

Well, these were two groups of children dieters, assigned
randomly. The low carb kids ate a lot more calories than the
conventionally dieting kids.

That low carb children could eat more, surprised me.

i
Bob in CT - 11 Aug 2004 20:33 GMT
>>> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> i

Actually, almost every study that looks at calories and low carb comes up
with the same results.  However, some people are adamant (sp?) that if you
took these people and put them in chambers to measure every calorie,
there's no difference in low carb and high carb.  There was one study that
used twins and did this and determined no difference between low and high
carb.  However, most studies support the "low carb = more weight loss"
hypothesis.  Have you seen these:

 Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in
Adult Women during Weight Loss (Journal Abstract)    Added on: 4/29/2003
    Hits: 263   
From the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and the Journal of
Nutrition, 2003: In this study, researchers placed two groups of women on
two diets, each of which was equal in calories and fat. One group was on a
high protein, low carbohydrate diet and the second was on the USDA's low
protein, high carbohydrate diet. The researchers noted that both groups
lost 16 pounds on average, but the low carbohydrate, high protein group
lost more body fat and less lean body mass than did the USDA food pyramid
group. The researchers also noted that women in the high protein group had
more stable glucose levels,lower insulin levels, and lower cholesterol
levels.

   
 High-Protein Beats High-Carbohydrate for Weight Loss in Low-Fat Diets
(Magazine Article)    Added on: 12/27/2002     Hits: 1145   
From the Arizona State University and the the Doctor's Guide, 2002: This
team of researchers compared the thermogenic effects of two different low
fat diets. The first low fat diet was high in protein and the second was
high in carbohydrate. The researchers found that the study participants'
body temperature and resting energy expenditure was 100% greater after
eating high protein meals that after eating high carbohydrate meals. They
concluded that the thermogenesis that occurs after high-protein meals may
partially explain the effectiveness of high-protein diets for weight loss.

(From http://www.lowcarbresearch.org/lcr/results.asp?catid=199)

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Bob in CT
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Ignoramus5937 - 11 Aug 2004 20:42 GMT
>   Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in
> Adult Women during Weight Loss (Journal Abstract)    Added on: 4/29/2003
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> more stable glucose levels,lower insulin levels, and lower cholesterol
> levels.

interesting

>    
>   High-Protein Beats High-Carbohydrate for Weight Loss in Low-Fat Diets
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> high in carbohydrate. The researchers found that the study participants'
> body temperature and resting energy expenditure was 100% greater after

they had 100% greater body TEMPERATURE???

like, 194 degrees fahrenheit as opposed to normal 97????

they were very "well done" by that time, huh... Yummy, well done, low
carb dieters. Were they served with gravy?

must be some mistake somewhere.

i

> eating high protein meals that after eating high carbohydrate meals. They
> concluded that the thermogenesis that occurs after high-protein meals may
> partially explain the effectiveness of high-protein diets for weight loss.
>
> (From http://www.lowcarbresearch.org/lcr/results.asp?catid=199)
Bob in CT - 11 Aug 2004 21:16 GMT
>>   Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in
>> Adult Women during Weight Loss (Journal Abstract)    Added on: 4/29/2003
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> i

These are interpreted by the lady who keeps up the site, but she provides
the links so that you can go read the actual study.   I think she means
that there was an elevated temperature and 100% greater resting energy
expenditure.

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Tom - 11 Aug 2004 22:31 GMT
  Based on my own experience. I did notice right away that on the lo-carb
diet, I wasn't feeling cold like I had been on regular low fat/low cal.
diets. Perhaps there is a metabolic advantage with higher protein.
   Tom
210/180/180
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   Increased Dietary Protein Modifies Glucose and Insulin Homeostasis in
> > Adult Women during Weight Loss (Journal Abstract) Added on: 4/29/2003
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> >
> > (From http://www.lowcarbresearch.org/lcr/results.asp?catid=199)
jbuch - 12 Aug 2004 01:08 GMT
>>>> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
>
> (From http://www.lowcarbresearch.org/lcr/results.asp?catid=199)

Sounds like it should have been stated as:

The researchers found that the study participants' body temperature was
greater after eating high protein meals compared to those eating high
carb meals. They also found that after eating high protein meals the
resting energy expenditure was 100% greater for the low carb group than
the high carb group.

The temptation to save a few words in an abstract created a potential
for confusion.

Nice article....

Thanks for drawing attention to it.

Jim
revek - 12 Aug 2004 01:07 GMT
Ignoramus5937 generously shared with us this little ditty:
> Well, these were two groups of children dieters, assigned
> randomly. The low carb kids ate a lot more calories than the
> conventionally dieting kids.
>
> That low carb children could eat more, surprised me.

Why?

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revek
The probability of forgetting something is directly proportional to
.... to .... uh ....

Lictor - 12 Aug 2004 15:28 GMT
> Well, these were two groups of children dieters, assigned
> randomly. The low carb kids ate a lot more calories than the
> conventionally dieting kids.

That might also be a problem. 1100 calories is very low. You don't always
have a linear rate of loss. Like, the rate is faster with VLC diets than
with pure fasting, because the body doesn't go as hard into economy mode.
Having the low-fat sample on such a low calorie diet while the low-carb
sample is not could introduce a bias, like one sample being in starvation
mode and not the other. It would have been better if they had only changed
one parameter, the diet, while remaining at constant caloric level. It would
also have been nice to have a balanced diet thrown in the sample, in order
to better discriminate between the diets. I'm still wondering if the good
results of low carbing are because they lower the carbs (compared to a
normal diet) or just because they don't cut the fats beyond the level of a
normal diet. Having a normal low-caloric diet in the sample might have shown
that.
During my initial weight loss, I had a pretty fast curve, like 6kg the first
month. I was on a normal diet (that is, eating the normal food for my
country - around the same amount of calories from fats and carbs) with
hunger control, so it's hard to know the exact number of calories, but I
would say I was around 1800 a day. So, it was possible to get a good rate of
weight loss, at least during the first couple of months, without cutting the
carbs and without getting the calories very low (though certainly much lower
than what I ate before!).
Bob in CT - 12 Aug 2004 15:36 GMT
>> Well, these were two groups of children dieters, assigned
>> randomly. The low carb kids ate a lot more calories than the
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> lower
> than what I ate before!).

Plus, when you're talking kids between those age ranges, randomly
assigning them might not be a great idea.  When I was teen and I was on
the football team, I ate a ton.  One 17 year old male who's physically
active (even if overweight) could really skew the results.  One would
think the authors of the study took this into consideration, but you never
know.

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julianne - 11 Aug 2004 23:50 GMT
How many children were in the study?  Did it say anywhere?

I believe almost everyone could do with fewer carbs than the typical US diet
offers.  I am also of the mindset that anything can be done to extreme.

I look forward to more information being developed about the glycemic index.
It seems to me that the type of carbs one chooses are more important than
the source of carbs.  And, I am always amazed at how some foods stack up!
Bananas - high glycemic index.  Canteloupe - low.  Snickers, because of the
nuts are interestingly low.  Whole grains and brown rice do not fair much
better than their pale counterparts.

Off to make a low carb dinner with just enough carbs to keep me happy and
not enough to cause my blood sugar to swing.

j
> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> evidence for the efficacy of a low-carb weight loss programme
> specifically for the most vulnerable group ? teenagers.
Ignoramus5937 - 12 Aug 2004 00:36 GMT
> How many children were in the study?  Did it say anywhere?

120.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15148063


> I believe almost everyone could do with fewer carbs than the typical US diet
> offers.  I am also of the mindset that anything can be done to extreme.

good mindset.

> I look forward to more information being developed about the glycemic index.
> It seems to me that the type of carbs one chooses are more important than
> the source of carbs.  And, I am always amazed at how some foods stack up!
> Bananas - high glycemic index.  Canteloupe - low.  Snickers, because of the
> nuts are interestingly low.  Whole grains and brown rice do not fair much
> better than their pale counterparts.

I am, personally, skeptical about glycemic index as a useful concept.

Probably, oatmeal is better than coca-cola, but between these
extremes, digestion depends on a million of factors.

> Off to make a low carb dinner with just enough carbs to keep me happy and
> not enough to cause my blood sugar to swing.

good for you...

do you know any successful long term low carbers?

i

> j
>> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>> evidence for the efficacy of a low-carb weight loss programme
>> specifically for the most vulnerable group ? teenagers.
Lictor - 12 Aug 2004 15:38 GMT
> I am, personally, skeptical about glycemic index as a useful concept.

It depends if you are diabetic or not ;) Though I do agree it's only
informative. It depends a lot on the whole composition of the meal, not of
individual items. But it has a great educative value, and some true
surprises (like, chocolate being rather low or industrial mashed potatoes
being higher than sugar).
Actually, I think the interresting part of GI is *what* can change the GI of
a given food item (fats, proteins, acidity...). Like, the fact that acidity
can lower GI dramatically, hence sourdough can be an alternative to
wholewheat bread. What is also very interresting is looking at traditionnal
cooking using that knowledge. Many traditionnal recipes are actually the
best way to lower the GI of the food. Just have a look at Spanish paella :
rice cooked in fat by absoption (= "al dente") along with proteins, fibers
and some lemon juice. Likewise, a good Indian curry *requires* an acid base
and some fat. France cooked beans in fat (duck fat, lard). There are many
similar recipes.
Ignoramus14701 - 12 Aug 2004 16:14 GMT
>> I am, personally, skeptical about glycemic index as a useful concept.
>
> It depends if you are diabetic or not ;)

I am not a diabetic, but my dad is (officially diagnosed, not just by
the home test), and so I am reading about diabetes as I am sure that I
myself am insulin resistant. (this is, again, based on objective
glucose tolerance tests and not conjecture).

So I have been reading about this stuff, and it appears that GI is
very substantially modified by a few things, such as:

1. What else is eaten.

2. For starchy foods, how long this food item was boiled

3. For fibery foods, just how much this item was broken up before
eating. E.g, a whole apple vs an apple paste from a blender.

All food processing involved in making "healthy food choices" is done
to increase GI. The mashing, drying, etc, all raise GI. So they take
healthy oat bran, shred it to tiny bits, precook, dry, and then
present this as healthy oat bran made food, but in fact it is not the
original oat bran as it would appear in a hot oat bran cereal.

So, I personally try to stay away from the concept of GI as it would
mislead me.

> Actually, I think the interresting part of GI is *what* can change the GI of
> a given food item (fats, proteins, acidity...). Like, the fact that acidity
> can lower GI dramatically, hence sourdough can be an alternative to
> wholewheat bread.

Yep, that's one parameter that affects GI.

> What is also very interresting is looking at traditionnal cooking
> using that knowledge. Many traditionnal recipes are actually the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> *requires* an acid base and some fat. France cooked beans in fat
> (duck fat, lard). There are many similar recipes.

Lard is also very tasty...

i
Boemsi - 12 Aug 2004 17:36 GMT
> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
>
> Obese children who were fed a low carb diet lost weight and improved
> blood lipids. These children also ate 66% more calories than controls,
> who ate "heart healthy" starches and whole grains. What a surprise.

Not at all. It's been known for some time that diets very low in fat make
you loose less weight than if you allow a bit of healthy fats. So I don't
find this is a very fair comparison. I also wonder about the long term
effects of the high-protein diet on cholesterol and liver functions.

I recently read that drinking grapefruit juice with every mail can make
you loose more weight, since the fibers it contain make you feel fuller
for longer. But hardly anybody is on a grapefruit diet... IMO too much is
bad, but so is too little. I'm still not convinced.

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207 - 197 - 180

Ignoramus14701 - 12 Aug 2004 17:44 GMT
>> What an amazing find, as I am reading more about low carbing.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> find this is a very fair comparison. I also wonder about the long term
> effects of the high-protein diet on cholesterol and liver functions.

From the study that I mentioned:

``As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on
kidneys and liver, kidney and liver fun ctions were regularly
monitored. They were found to be unaffected by this diet.''

So, in that study, children had no impairment in liver or kidney.

> I recently read that drinking grapefruit juice with every mail can make
> you loose more weight, since the fibers it contain make you feel fuller
> for longer. But hardly anybody is on a grapefruit diet... IMO too much is
> bad, but so is too little. I'm still not convinced.

I am not completely convinced (about low carbing), but I am becoming
more and more convinced that it is the real thing, and likely very
suitable for people like me.

i
Lictor - 12 Aug 2004 21:37 GMT
> ``As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on
> kidneys and liver, kidney and liver fun ctions were regularly
> monitored. They were found to be unaffected by this diet.''
>
> So, in that study, children had no impairment in liver or kidney.

That was a 12 weeks study. I doubt *any* diet would manage to damage the
liver or kidney in such a small amount of time, no matter how unbalanced.
Both these organs are extremelly sturdy, it takes repeated assaults on them
to finally cause them to malfunction. If one really wanted to see the health
impacts of these diets, one would have to study them over several years, on
a large population. That would be an interresting study in itself. I'm not
convinced extreme low-fat is any healthier than extreme low-carb btw.
Ignoramus14701 - 13 Aug 2004 01:26 GMT
>> ``As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on
>> kidneys and liver, kidney and liver fun ctions were regularly
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> a large population. That would be an interresting study in itself. I'm not
> convinced extreme low-fat is any healthier than extreme low-carb btw.

It would be an interesting study.

Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular
people do.

i
Boemsi - 13 Aug 2004 14:54 GMT
> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular
> people do.

Now you got me confused: if they don't eat more protein, and less carbs
than regular people, where do they get their calories from? Regular to me
means a 2200 calory diet..

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207 - 196 - 180

Ignoramus23157 - 13 Aug 2004 14:59 GMT
>> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular
>> people do.
>
> Now you got me confused: if they don't eat more protein, and less carbs
> than regular people, where do they get their calories from? Regular to me
> means a 2200 calory diet..

They get more calories from fat, typically.

i
julianne - 16 Aug 2004 12:12 GMT
> >> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular
> >> people do.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> i

I don't know what typical low carbers do but I get an increased number of
calories from protien.  I have a protien shake daily with 25 grams of
protien made with ff yogurt and occasionally some canteloupe or peanut
butter.  I center my diet around lean protien and low glycemic veggies.
Although I am not disciplined enough to count anything including grams of
carbs, I do sometimes enter my food into fitday.  It usually shows that less
than 20 percent of calories come from carbs, and 50 percent come from
protien with the remaining coming from fat and alcohol (on the days I drink
wine).

j
Ignoramus17574 - 16 Aug 2004 15:18 GMT
>> >> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular
>> >> people do.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> protien with the remaining coming from fat and alcohol (on the days I drink
> wine).

So, say, you eat 1500 calories per day (an assumption), that means
that you get 750 calories from protein, that means that you are eating
an equivalent of 1.6 lbs of lean turkey breast! That's a lot of protein
you have to eat... Very impressive.

i
julianne - 23 Aug 2004 21:51 GMT
let's see

breakfast

soy protien     25 gms
yogurt            10
pb                    8

snack
egg                12 (?)

Lunch
Chicken wrap 38

Dinner

Cheeseburger 30

That doesn't include any nuts or cheese I snack on during the day and comes
to approx 500 calories from protien which is slightly less than half of what
I take in (around 1100 - 1200) although I am deliberately increasing the
amount of food I am taking in.  When I was actively losing weight, the SBD
sort of killed my appetite so there were probably several days each week
that I didn't eat nearly as much as I should have.

j

> >> >> Again, most low carbers do not eat much more protein than regular
> >> >> people do.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> i
Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 21:58 GMT
> let's see
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Cheeseburger 30

that would be 123 grams of protein, or 492 calories. About 41%. Stil,
quite a lot!

i

> That doesn't include any nuts or cheese I snack on during the day and comes
> to approx 500 calories from protien which is slightly less than half of what
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>>
>> i
Boemsi - 12 Aug 2004 21:50 GMT
> From the study that I mentioned:
>
> ``As high-protein/fat diets are thought to have adverse effects on
> kidneys and liver, kidney and liver fun ctions were regularly
> monitored. They were found to be unaffected by this diet.''

As I said: long term effects. Meaning 10 to 20 years from now, and later,
with the kids being on a sustained low-carb/high-protein regimen. Most of
the bad effects of high fat don't become evident until much later in life,
when your body is less 'adjustable'. Kid's bodies are often much more
adept at adjusting with little or no impact (e.g. broken bones heal twice
as fast in infants compared to adults, IYKWIM).

Unfortunately, the low-carb diet hasn't been around long enough to really
understand its long term effects. In the long run we still have to see
whether it is indeed more efficient, and at what costs. And by that I also
mean at least 10 to 20 years from now. Of course, if the alternative is
being severly obese, anything is better than that...

Signature

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207 - 197 - 180

Ignoramus14701 - 13 Aug 2004 01:28 GMT
>> From the study that I mentioned:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> As I said: long term effects. Meaning 10 to 20 years from now, and later,
> with the kids being on a sustained low-carb/high-protein regimen. Most of

Low carb is not high protein. Most low carb people do not overeat
protein for a very simple reason, protein is hard to overeat.

> the bad effects of high fat don't become evident until much later in
> life, when your body is less 'adjustable'. Kid's bodies are often
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> mean at least 10 to 20 years from now. Of course, if the alternative is
> being severly obese, anything is better than that...

Exactly. Like you, I would love to see more long term lowcarbers and
see how they do. I actually asked for such people on
alt.support.diet.low-carb recently. Some were lowcarbing for up to 15
years.

i
 
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