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Couch-bound woman's death raises questions

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Enid Ritchie - 20 Aug 2004 13:17 GMT
Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
By Jose Lambiet

Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

Thursday, August 19, 2004

At 478 pounds, Gayle Grinds had become the invisible woman.

Her neighbors never knew Grinds was among them, even though she lived in
her small, fading, green row house in the Golden Gate community south of
Stuart for 10 years.

Social services agencies hadn't heard of her; Grinds got by on Social
Security checks while suffering from life-threatening obesity. Visitors
rarely came. Grinds lived in a squalid home with a man unable to care for
her, stuck too far from the stove to cook, too far from the bathroom to
take a shower.

Strangely, there is no trace of Grinds in the 1981 Martin County High
School yearbook, even though she attended that school for four years. Her
name isn't there. Her picture is missing.

It is as if she never existed.

"My mom didn't like anyone taking pictures of her," said Grinds'
14-year-old adopted daughter, Deanna. "She was a proud woman."

Grinds would have turned 40 on Aug. 27. She died early Aug. 11 at Martin
Memorial Hospital South. Her case was so disturbing that some members of
the ER crew that night sought counseling, according to a hospital
spokeswoman.

Grinds had been lying on a dirty burgundy-and-gray fabric couch in her
living room for most of the past six years when family members called 911
late on Aug. 10 to report that Grinds was having difficulty breathing.
Unwashed for months, lying in her own excrement, couch fabric intertwined
with the skin of her back, Grinds screamed in pain when the rescuers, clad
in protective gear, tried to lift her.

They had to fabricate a makeshift stretcher big enough to accommodate
Grinds, a 4-foot-10 woman who weighed 140 pounds more than the 7-foot-1
Shaquille O'Neal, but they couldn't fit her into an ambulance. With Grinds
still fused to the couch, they laid her on a borrowed trailer pulled by a
pickup. Surgeons never had time to separate her from the couch. She died
less than two hours after being hospitalized.

While her death certificate lists "morbid obesity" as the cause of her
passing, police said they are investigating the circumstances surrounding
Grinds' care. Criminal neglect charges, they said, are possible.

Humiliation began with a fall

Earlier in her life, things were different for Grinds.

In her 20s, she was visible in the community where she lived at the time, a
blighted, high-crime complex of $100-a-month rental units in East Stuart.
Gregarious, already 300 pounds but mobile, Grinds was known as a great cook
who loved to pass around her fried chicken and fish. She had a giant
appetite, but she told friends a thyroid problem made her obese.

Former neighbors said she already lived with Herman Thomas, a roofer who
was with her until the end. At the time, Thomas was bringing home enough of
a paycheck to buy a small Japanese car that Grinds used to drive residents
to the supermarket or church.

"Gayle Grinds?" repeated Alice Robertson, a longtime resident of the Tarpon
Commons complex. "Everybody knew her. She was a nice lady. You couldn't
help liking her. She was well-adjusted. You could hear her laugh all over
the complex. She stood out because she was so big."

Although she didn't have any children of her own, Grinds asked a local
judge to award her custody of a 9-year-old boy and 3-year-old girl orphaned
when Grinds' younger sister, Jessie, died at 25. She also was known to
watch other residents' children.

"She was a good mother to us," said Deanna, the girl whose custody Grinds
was awarded in 1992. "She was buying us stuff all the time. She taught me
to cook."

About the same time, however, Grinds' life changed in the few seconds it
takes to lose one's footing.

Years of humiliation started with a fall.

"She was just walking in the complex, and she fell in mud," Robertson said.
"I remember waiting for the ambulance with her. She was in pain. She was
lying in mud, and no one could lift her up until the ambulance came. She
broke her leg pretty bad."

According to Robertson and another neighbor at the complex, John Harris, it
took Grinds almost a year to recover. While she was laid up with pins in
her left leg, she gained another 100 pounds. For a time, she got around in
a wheelchair, then with the help of a walker. Eventually, she became mobile
again, and in 1994 moved a few miles south to Golden Gate, into her last
home.

Couch an island of no return

In 1998, said Vivian Kendricks, Grinds' older sister, she fell again and
broke the same leg. She sought treatment and recovered, Kendricks said, but
never left her couch again.

"There is one thing that kept my sister on that couch — fear," Kendricks
said. "She had been in such pain when she broke her leg that she was too
afraid it would happen again."

Thomas, Grinds' longtime boyfriend, could not be located after Grinds'
death. But several of Grinds' acquaintances said he couldn't take care of
her — except to get her basic groceries.

Basically jobless, Thomas looks 20 years older than his 54 years. Criminal
records show he has been arrested on drug- and alcohol-related charges,
including a DUI on his bicycle in 2002. He was described by one Golden Gate
neighbor as someone who did little more than sit alone in the yard for most
of the day, drinking bottles of Budweiser while Grinds lay on the couch.

Then, just as Grinds needed help the most, relatives also were in trouble.
Her younger brother, Clifford Grinds, was arrested 14 times in Martin
County in the past 20 years on charges ranging from cocaine possession to
assault and robbery. He was sentenced to a total of 14 years in prison. And
Marcus, the son that Grinds adopted from her sister, last year was arrested
for allegedly trying to shoplift a camera from a Stuart Wal-Mart.

One cousin in an ideal position to help said she didn't know about Grinds'
problems. When Grinds adopted her niece and nephew, court documents show,
she listed her cousin Evelyn Harris as the person who would take care of
them if she died. That cousin is a family support worker for the state's
Department of Children and Families in Stuart, which has a unit charged
with taking care of adults who can't take care of themselves. By law, DCF
workers must report cases of children or adults in need of services.

Harris, a 23-year DCF veteran, hung up on a reporter when asked about
Grinds. Later, she put out a statement through the department's public
relations office.

"I am deeply saddened by the loss of my cousin," she wrote. "I had no
knowledge of the condition of my cousin or the home, as I had not been
inside the home for more than five years. Had I known about the condition
of my cousin and the home, I would of course have done something."

All of Harris' work evaluations at DCF showed performance ranging from
"exceeding expectations" to "outstanding."

DCF later issued this statement by Christine Demetriades, a DCF public
information officer: "After looking into this matter, the Department of
Children and Families has no reason to believe there was any misconduct on
the part of our employee Ms. Harris. Ms. Harris has always been a very
capable and caring employee."

Deplorable living conditions

On her couch — mostly watching television, Kendricks said — Grinds sank
into depression, according to an acquaintance who visited her three years
ago. The home became so squalid that some of Grinds' friends who used her
to watch their kids stopped taking them there.

The stench of stale urine and feces still emanated from the home two days
after Grinds died, reaching the street 90 feet away, and at least two
adjacent properties. Scrawny cats jumped in and out of the house through a
broken floor-level window.

When the fire-rescue crew arrived at the house, they found a sparsely
furnished home with no air conditioning and letters piled on a table with
cockroaches eating their way through the envelopes. Around the space where
Grinds' couch had been, they saw dozens of empty Publix soda cans strewn on
the floor. Empty bags of Doritos, Ruffles chips, an ice-cream cone wrapper
and rotting, maggot-infested oranges had been thrown on the floor among
unwashed pants, T-shirts and underwear.

A television and stereo equipment were on the floor — bare concrete in some
parts. In the kitchen, the fridge wasn't working and contained several
plates of decomposing food. Two bedrooms had mattresses on the floor,
including one partly burned, among clothes, paperwork and more food
wrappers.

Two of Grinds' three surviving siblings couldn't explain why rescuers found
her in such a shape. Brother Clifford Grinds, now out of jail and living 5
miles away, said he loved his sister.

"She was the sweetest person I knew," he said. "If we knew things were so
bad, we would have done something." He declined to comment further.

And sister Vivian Kendricks said she did visit Grinds once in a while,
washing her on her couch and cooking for her. She didn't remember the last
time she saw Grinds and said nothing seemed to be wrong with her lifestyle.

"I know she started feeling real bad two weeks ago," Kendricks said. "But
she had asthma. My sister was hard-headed. She just wouldn't get off that
couch."

Kendricks said people in her neighborhood of East Stuart have been looking
at her differently since the news spread.

"Some say we should go to jail for letting her deteriorate," the
44-year-old Kendricks said. "Why should we go to jail? Gayle was a grown
woman. She could make her own decisions."
Gorf - 20 Aug 2004 15:00 GMT
> Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
> By Jose Lambiet
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> At 478 pounds, Gayle Grinds had become the invisible woman.

[snip]

You're a bit f.cking late aren't you?  This was posted days ago.

--
Gorf
Dave C. - 20 Aug 2004 15:34 GMT
> > Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
> > By Jose Lambiet
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> --
> Gorf

The OP had lots of details that I hadn't read before.  If you don't want to
read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in this story.  -Dave
Bob Ward - 20 Aug 2004 17:19 GMT
>> > Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
>> > By Jose Lambiet
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>The OP had lots of details that I hadn't read before.  If you don't want to
>read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in this story.  -Dave

If that's the case, the late poster should have provided a link to the
pagwe they stole the story from, so the rest of us don't have to
download the pile of glurge.
Lady Veteran - 21 Aug 2004 01:03 GMT
>> > Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
>> > By Jose Lambiet
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>want to read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in this story.
> -Dave

Of course you are. anything that puts fat people in a bad light is a
must read, isn't it?

LV

Lady Veteran
- -----------------------------------
"I rode a tank and held a general's rank
when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank..."
- -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
- ------------------------------------------------
People who hide behind anonymous remailers and
ridicule fat people are cowardly idiots with no
motive but malice.
- ---------------------------------------------
For every person with a spark of genius, there
are a hundred more with ignition trouble.
- -Unknown
- -------------------------------
A.Lizard - 21 Aug 2004 02:16 GMT
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>>> > Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
>>> > By Jose Lambiet

[tale of Lardy Veteran lookalike snipped]

>>The OP had lots of details that I hadn't read before.  If you don't
>>want to read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in this story.
>> -Dave
>>
>Of course you are. anything that puts fat people in a bad light is a
>must read, isn't it?

*ANY* light is a bad light for a landwhale.

As you know from experience.

A.Lizard

>LV
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>=ZD5R
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

************************************************************************
". . .so you have my retroactive sympathy. but i do hope you've
learned not to eat sh.t." Ace Lightning
Personal Web site http://www.ecis.com/~alizard 
PGP 8.0 key available by request,keyserver,or on my Web site
Get PGPfone for secure voice conferencing, W9x,NT,Mac) at
http://www.pgpi.org/products/nai/pgpfone/
Looking for some intelligent public policy ideas?
http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/technology.html

************************************************************************
fungus - 21 Aug 2004 02:17 GMT
>>The OP had lots of details that I hadn't read before.  If you don't
>>want to read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in this story.
>>-Dave
>
> Of course you are. anything that puts fat people in a bad light is a
> must read, isn't it?

So, somebody eats enough doritos to actually melt
themselves into their sofa and you feel nothing
but compassion for a fellow "fat person"...?

...A little bit on the chubby side, but basically
Ok. Is that what we should be thinking?

*Snooork*

Signature

fungus

"Imagine watching the entire French Air Force crash into
 a firework factory, that's how much fun this is..." J.C.

Grizzled Old Bastard - 21 Aug 2004 02:44 GMT
>So, somebody eats enough doritos to actually melt
>themselves into their sofa and you feel nothing
>but compassion for a fellow "fat person"...?

It could be the start of "The Borg" line of furniture.
Grizzled Old Bastard - 21 Aug 2004 02:45 GMT
>So, somebody eats enough doritos to actually melt
>themselves into their sofa and you feel nothing
>but compassion for a fellow "fat person"...?

It could be the start of "The Borg" line of furniture.
Lady Veteran - 21 Aug 2004 16:53 GMT
>>>The OP had lots of details that I hadn't read before.  If you
>>>don't want to read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>*Snooork*

NO. I will type slow so that even a construct like you can
understand. There are fat people like this that need help. Until
medicare recognized obesity as a disease, it was believed that a
person like this was simply living a life style choice. You still
believe that and I want to know what color the sky is in your world.

Now, thanks to medicare, people like this will get the help they need
and not be denied care by the medical and psychiatric establishment.

The world can get along better without you. Please take the hint.

LV

Lady Veteran
- -----------------------------------
"I rode a tank and held a general's rank
when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank..."
- -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
- ------------------------------------------------
People who hide behind anonymous remailers and
ridicule fat people are cowardly idiots with no
motive but malice.
- ---------------------------------------------
For every person with a spark of genius, there
are a hundred more with ignition trouble.
- -Unknown
- -------------------------------
fungus - 21 Aug 2004 17:28 GMT
>>*Snooork*
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> person like this was simply living a life style choice. You still
> believe that and I want to know what color the sky is in your world.

*Snooork* again.

Please explain why this "disease" is mainly restricted
to the USA. Are they somehow genetically different than
the rest of the world.

Nope, I think you'll find it´s a lifestyle thing. The USA
has created a society where people are constantly being
told (by people like yourself) that *nothing* is their
fault, that it's all because they have a disease or
because they were abused as children, or...

The end result of all this is exactly what we're seeing,
a whole society full of whining overweight people who
never did a hard day's work in their entire life.

Truth is, the scientific research has been done and there
is no "disease". Fatties *do* get thin if they eat right
instead of choosing "comfort" foods all the time and
actually get up off the couch a couple of times a week.

But, no! Accepting this obvious truth would take away
your ability to blame your miserable life on your weight
problem wouldn't it? Knowing that your weight is a direct
result of your own weak will would likely push you into
a deeper depression. A depression which would be best
helped by a sudden rise in your blood sugar...

Signature

fungus

Daniel Hoffmeister - 21 Aug 2004 19:02 GMT
In alt.support.diet.low-carb Lady Veteran <armyvet@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> Now, thanks to medicare, people like this will get the help they need
> and not be denied care by the medical and psychiatric establishment.

At least no more than Medicare patients are already being denied care.

Dan
325/211/180
Atkins since 1/1/02 (yeah, it was a New Year's Resolution)
Besetting sins: good beer, German bread, and Krispy Kremes
Lady Veteran - 21 Aug 2004 23:06 GMT
>In alt.support.diet.low-carb Lady Veteran <armyvet@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Atkins since 1/1/02 (yeah, it was a New Year's Resolution)
>Besetting sins: good beer, German bread, and Krispy Kremes

True. However the diagnostic precedent is the point here. Alcoholism
used to be viewed as a lifestyle choice and it is no longer.

People who make themselves too big to walk  have psychological
problems that go way beyond their physical size.

LV

Lady Veteran
- -----------------------------------
"I rode a tank and held a general's rank
when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank..."
- -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
- ------------------------------------------------
People who hide behind anonymous remailers and
ridicule fat people are cowardly idiots with no
motive but malice.
- ---------------------------------------------
For every person with a spark of genius, there
are a hundred more with ignition trouble.
- -Unknown
- -------------------------------
Dave C. - 22 Aug 2004 01:35 GMT
> People who make themselves too big to walk  have psychological
> problems that go way beyond their physical size.
>
> LV

I'll agree with you there.  That's not what happened in this case, however.
The psychological problem didn't make the woman too big to walk.  The
psychological problem prevented the woman from even trying to walk.  That
is, if she'd have been less than 200 pounds (for example) she still would
have been fused to the couch.  -Dave
Daniel Hoffmeister - 22 Aug 2004 02:32 GMT
In alt.support.diet.low-carb Dave C. <mdupre@sff.net> wrote:
> > People who make themselves too big to walk  have psychological
> > problems that go way beyond their physical size.
> >
> > LV

> I'll agree with you there.  That's not what happened in this case, however.
> The psychological problem didn't make the woman too big to walk.  The
> psychological problem prevented the woman from even trying to walk.  That
> is, if she'd have been less than 200 pounds (for example) she still would
> have been fused to the couch.  -Dave

Fear of pain is a lot more powerful if you've suffered severe pain. It's
very hard for anyone who has not experienced the severe pain of a
debilitating injury or illness to understand the physical terror that can
be brought on by even the prospect of a simple step off a curb when you
are debilitated, unbalanced, and in pain after being off your feet for a
long time.

If you want to blame something, blame the inadequate medical care that did
not provide the woman with adequate followup and rehab after her
fractures.

Dan
325/211/180
Atkins since 1/1/02 (yeah, it was a New Year's Resolution)
Besetting sins: good beer, German bread, and Krispy Kremes
Dave C. - 23 Aug 2004 01:34 GMT
> Fear of pain is a lot more powerful if you've suffered severe pain. It's
> very hard for anyone who has not experienced the severe pain of a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> not provide the woman with adequate followup and rehab after her
> fractures.

Oh I agree.  There is plenty of blame to go around in this case.  The fact
that she didn't receive proper medical and/or phychiatric care does not
change the fact that she died as a result of criminally negligent homicide.
IMHO  That is, if you know someone is soaking in their own sh.t and likely
to die that way, and choose to do NOTHING, then you are criminally
negligent.  If a death results from said negligence, that is criminally
negligent homicide.  -Dave
Gordon Burditt - 23 Aug 2004 05:01 GMT
>Oh I agree.  There is plenty of blame to go around in this case.  The fact
>that she didn't receive proper medical and/or phychiatric care does not
>change the fact that she died as a result of criminally negligent homicide.
>IMHO  That is, if you know someone is soaking in their own sh.t and likely
>to die that way, and choose to do NOTHING, then you are criminally
>negligent.  

Is that true even if you have no responsibility to care for this person?
And no ability to interfere?

>If a death results from said negligence, that is criminally
>negligent homicide.  -Dave

How many people on Earth are *NOT* criminally responsible for the
death of this woman?  How many of them are in China?

If I tell you and the whole newsgroup that there are starving orphans
in Africa, and you do nothing about it, and one of them dies, is
anyone who reads the newsgroup guilty of criminally negligent homicide?
How about if the story shows up on international news?

                    Gordon L. Burditt
Dave C. - 24 Aug 2004 00:58 GMT
> Is that true even if you have no responsibility to care for this person?
> And no ability to interfere?

To whom are you referring?  In this case, there was an adult person of sound
mind who TOOK responsibility to care for this person, had the ability to
interfere and chose NOT TO.

Your tangent about starving orphans does not relate to this case at all.
The sister had no responsibility nor ability to save starving orphans in
other countries.  The sister took responsibility for the woman whom she
allowed to die.  She had the ability to interfere.  But She didn't.  -Dave
Lictor - 26 Aug 2004 14:50 GMT
> Is that true even if you have no responsibility to care for this person?
> And no ability to interfere?

He had the moral responsability we all take when we chose to live with
someone.
Moreover, I live in a country where failure to provide help to anyone in
danger is a criminal offense, unless providing that help would have put
yourself in danger or been beyond your possibilities. If I had been a
neighbourgh, and had known of her condition, and had done nothing, I would
have deserved jailed from a strictly legal point of view. As a member of a
community, you do have responsabilities towards the other members that you
sign in when you implicitely accept the social contract.

> If I tell you and the whole newsgroup that there are starving orphans
> in Africa, and you do nothing about it, and one of them dies, is
> anyone who reads the newsgroup guilty of criminally negligent homicide?

They're not part of our community and we have not contracted any duty
towards them, and we have no easy mean to help them, so no, that would not
be an homicide. But not doing anything at all to help them is indeed morally
wrong. If you knowingly vote in politicians who aggravated the problems, you
are fully responsible. Just like the Germans who supported Hitler and the
French who followed the Vichy government and didn't revolt are guilty of the
Holocaust.
Dave C. - 21 Aug 2004 03:48 GMT
> >The OP had lots of details that I hadn't read before.  If you don't
> >want to read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in this story.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Lady Veteran

What are you talking about?  I'm interested in true crime, that's why I'm
here.  If this story isn't a true crime, what is???  -Dave
Grizzled Old Bastard - 21 Aug 2004 03:49 GMT
>What are you talking about?  I'm interested in true crime, that's why I'm
>here.  If this story isn't a true crime, what is???  -Dave

What crime? Felony lardass?
Dave C. - 21 Aug 2004 12:28 GMT
> >What are you talking about?  I'm interested in true crime, that's why I'm
> >here.  If this story isn't a true crime, what is???  -Dave
>
> What crime? Felony lardass?

Criminally negligent homicide.  A woman of not sound mind was killing
herself slowly while soaking in her own sh.t for years.  Meanwhile, a female
relative of sound mind thought it would be OK to let her die like
hat.  -Dave
fungus - 21 Aug 2004 13:11 GMT
>>What crime? Felony lardass?
>
> Criminally negligent homicide.  A woman of not sound mind was killing
> herself slowly while soaking in her own sh.t for years.  Meanwhile, a female
> relative of sound mind thought it would be OK to let her die like
> hat.

"C'mon and f.cking DIE, you dumb bitch", was probably
the thought going through her mind. Along with "Get
it OVER WITH!"

Signature

fungus

"Imagine watching the entire French Air Force crash into
 a firework factory, that's how much fun this is..." J.C.

Lady Veteran - 21 Aug 2004 16:56 GMT
>>>What crime? Felony lardass?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>the thought going through her mind. Along with "Get
>it OVER WITH!"

May you find yourself needing help and never getting it.

LV

Lady Veteran
- -----------------------------------
"I rode a tank and held a general's rank
when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank..."
- -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
- ------------------------------------------------
People who hide behind anonymous remailers and
ridicule fat people are cowardly idiots with no
motive but malice.
- ---------------------------------------------
For every person with a spark of genius, there
are a hundred more with ignition trouble.
- -Unknown
- -------------------------------
Grizzled Old Bastard - 21 Aug 2004 13:20 GMT
>Criminally negligent homicide.  A woman of not sound mind was killing
>herself slowly while soaking in her own sh.t for years.  Meanwhile, a female
>relative of sound mind thought it would be OK to let her die like
>hat.  -Dave

She deserved it.
Dave C. - 21 Aug 2004 13:52 GMT
> >Criminally negligent homicide.  A woman of not sound mind was killing
> >herself slowly while soaking in her own sh.t for years.  Meanwhile, a female
> >relative of sound mind thought it would be OK to let her die like
> >hat.  -Dave
>
> She deserved it.

I'll assume you made that comment out of ignorance, and enlighten you.  The
woman who died was (let's face it) FAT, but that wasn't her biggest problem.
Her biggest problem was that she needed psychiatric help, because it was
FEAR that kept her on the couch.  She'd broken her leg twice, and was so
afraid to break her leg again that she refused to leave the couch.  Note she
COULD have been mobile in a wheelchair (she'd used one before) or she COULD
have even walked on her own two feet (her broken leg healed both times).
What prevented her from doing so was fear.  That level of fear (where you
are willing to soak in your own sh.t rather than face your fear) is
unhealthy and requires professional treatment.

Her weight problem was a red herring in this situation.  Granted, it would
have been healthier for her to shed about 300 pounds or so.  But at 180
pounds (for example), she still would have died on the couch.  Her main
problem was psychological.  She did not deserve to die.  She was an active
and valuable member of the community at ~300 pounds.  That was before
breaking her leg twice.  With proper treatment, she could have been on her
feet again, gotten back down to 300 pounds (maybe less) and resumed her
normal life.  In other words, she could have been happy and (reasonably)
healthy again at ~300 pounds, but she didn't get the help she desperately
needed to get there.  A female relative instead decided it would be better
to let her die in her own sh.t.  -Dave
geminii2 - 22 Aug 2004 05:45 GMT
> > >Criminally negligent homicide.  A woman of not sound mind was killing
> > >herself slowly while soaking in her own sh.t for years.  Meanwhile, a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'll assume you made that comment out of ignorance, and enlighten you.  The
> woman who died was (let's face it) FAT, but that wasn't her biggest problem.

  Oh stop. Why don't you face it? Being fat was by far her biggest
problem! She would not have had these kind of psychological issues if
she had not been fat.

> Her biggest problem was that she needed psychiatric help, because it was
> FEAR that kept her on the couch.  She'd broken her leg twice, and was so
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> needed to get there.  A female relative instead decided it would be better
> to let her die in her own sh.t.  -Dave

      This woman was no more psychologically disabled than those in
here who believe obesity is acceptable.  Denial is what the mind uses
to defend itself from something fearful.  Why do you assume she was
afraid of falling when it is more logical to assume she was grounded
by her inability to physically get off of the couch or even pass
through a door?  Morbid obesity, let alone super-morbid obesity, IS a
terrifying condition.  It is something that the human psyche is
unprepared to deal with. That is why fat people deny the fact that
they are committing a slow form of suicide.

      The relatives in this situation are scum, but this woman
started to kill herself many years ago and maybe they just got used to
it.
Dave C. - 23 Aug 2004 01:37 GMT
>        This woman was no more psychologically disabled than those in
> here who believe obesity is acceptable.  Denial is what the mind uses
> to defend itself from something fearful.  Why do you assume she was
> afraid of falling when it is more logical to assume she was grounded
> by her inability to physically get off of the couch or even pass
> through a door?

Ummmm, because I can read?  (was that a trick question?)  -Dave
Lady Veteran - 21 Aug 2004 16:55 GMT
>> >The OP had lots of details that I hadn't read before.  If you
>> >don't want to read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>What are you talking about?  I'm interested in true crime, that's
>why I'm here.  If this story isn't a true crime, what is???  -Dave

It is a crime but not one committed by someone in need of psychiatric
help and denied it. Gotta satisfy that morbid curiosity, right?

LV

Lady Veteran
- -----------------------------------
"I rode a tank and held a general's rank
when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank..."
- -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
- ------------------------------------------------
People who hide behind anonymous remailers and
ridicule fat people are cowardly idiots with no
motive but malice.
- ---------------------------------------------
For every person with a spark of genius, there
are a hundred more with ignition trouble.
- -Unknown
- -------------------------------
Dave C. - 22 Aug 2004 01:31 GMT
> >What are you talking about?  I'm interested in true crime, that's
> >why I'm here.  If this story isn't a true crime, what is???  -Dave
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> LV

Huh?  I think this is a clear-cut case of criminal negligent homicide.  What
does morbid curiosity have to do with the price of tea in China?  -Dave
Fifty Hertz - 21 Aug 2004 06:13 GMT
>anything that puts fat people in a bad light is a
> must read, isn't it?

It's not a bad light, it's a bad shadow.
Frem A. Son - 22 Aug 2004 00:20 GMT
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Of course you are. anything that puts fat people in a bad light is a
> must read, isn't it?

Yes.
com@com.com - 21 Aug 2004 02:52 GMT
>> > Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
>> > By Jose Lambiet
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>The OP had lots of details that I hadn't read before.  If you don't want to
>read it, f.ck off.  Some of us are interested in this story.  -Dave

Hey, watch your f.cking language !!!!!
Dave C. - 20 Aug 2004 15:49 GMT
> Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
> By Jose Lambiet
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> At 478 pounds, Gayle Grinds had become the invisible woman.

(following heavily snipped)

> Grinds would have turned 40 on Aug. 27. She died early Aug. 11 at Martin
> Memorial Hospital South. Her case was so disturbing that some members of
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> 44-year-old Kendricks said. "Why should we go to jail? Gayle was a grown
> woman. She could make her own decisions."

Gayle Grinds was not of sound mind.  That's obvious when there is nothing
physically preventing you from leaving a couch, and FEAR is enough to keep
you there (she wasn't always FUSED to the couch).  Gayle could have stayed
in a wheelchair the rest of her life if she couldn't get over her fear of
walking.  At least then she'd be alive and able to care for herself.  But
she really needed psychiatric help, and didn't get it.  Therefore an adult
of sound mind (Vivian Kendricks) who knew of her condition had the legal
obligation to help her out of a life-threatening situation, and chose not
to.  That is criminally negligent homicide.  IMHO  You could argue that the
boyfriend who did the grocery shopping should be charged also.  But then
again, from the details provided, it's pretty clear he wasn't of sound mind,
either.

I can't believe Vivian Kendricks has the nerve to claim that Gayle was a
grown woman who could maker her own decisions.  If you choose to spend every
second of your life soaking in your own feces, only a moron would claim that
you are capable of making your own decisions.  -Dave
Grizzled - 20 Aug 2004 16:50 GMT
> If you choose to spend every
>second of your life soaking in your own feces, only a moron would claim that
>you are capable of making your own decisions.

Lady Veteran  makes her own decisions, so what's your point?
Jarkat2002 - 21 Aug 2004 00:35 GMT
>I can't believe Vivian Kendricks has the nerve to claim that Gayle was a
>grown woman who could maker her own decisions.  If you choose to spend every
>second of your life soaking in your own feces, only a moron would claim that
>you are capable of making your own decisions.  -Dave

amen
~Kat

"help is on the way"
~John Kerry
E Varden - 23 Aug 2004 00:14 GMT
    [...]
]

>I can't believe Vivian Kendricks has the nerve to claim that Gayle was a
grown woman who could maker her own decisions.  If you choose to spend every
second of your life soaking in your own feces, only a moron would claim that
>you are capable of making your own decisions.  -Dave

Dave you stupid crossposting pisswit!

How DARE you suggest that our Vivian did Something Wrong!  Without Viv
we wouldn't have the risible story of the Fat Lady vs the polyester
couch, you dim c.nt!

Yay Viv!

My personal nig-nog heroine!

(I had first deleted the xposts but have reinstated them....Dave, you're
a hero, a mesenger-tribunal to us all!)

Does "Dave" understand  sarcasm, I wonder?  Does he understand the irony
of cross-posting his weepingly sentimental philosophy to adft?

Hey Dave!

f.ck up some more!  I for one sure enjoy ya!

Mr. Rogers
tcomeau - 20 Aug 2004 19:20 GMT
Did you all notice that the remnants of food products found were
carbs. Soda, doritos, etc.

TC

> Couch-bound woman's death raises questions
> By Jose Lambiet
[quoted text clipped - 193 lines]
> 44-year-old Kendricks said. "Why should we go to jail? Gayle was a grown
> woman. She could make her own decisions."
Aquarijen - 20 Aug 2004 19:53 GMT
> Did you all notice that the remnants of food products found were
> carbs. Soda, doritos, etc.

Yeah, but if there had been meat lying around, the cats that were jumping in
and out of the windows would have taken it.
-Jen
Pantheras - 20 Aug 2004 21:44 GMT
> Did you all notice that the remnants of food products found were
> carbs. Soda, doritos, etc.

It was also stated that she did not have anyone to cook for her
and no refrigeration.  So what would eat?

                   Cork-O-Mattic
                 The Proper Stopper
               Exclusive butt plug of
                the Special Olympics
drdoody - 20 Aug 2004 21:55 GMT
> > Did you all notice that the remnants of food products found were
> > carbs. Soda, doritos, etc.
>
> It was also stated that she did not have anyone to cook for her
> and no refrigeration.  So what would eat?

"Scrawny cats jumped in and out of the house through a
broken floor-level window."

Doc

Signature

"I'm completely in favor of the separation
of Church and State. My idea is that
these two institutions screw us up
enough on their own, so both of them
together is certain death."

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