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Paleo diet -- one month results

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Ignoramus15381 - 22 Aug 2004 00:34 GMT
As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising.
Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep
10.

I ate less, reduced carbs some, but not radically.

Despite the fact that I maintained my weight loss steadily and even
lost a bit more, I felt hungry most of the day and got some food
obsessions, thinking a bit too much about food, which are, actually,
mental signs of starvation. (I can post a great text about that that
describes starvation related mental symptoms).

My main food desires were meaty, fatty things. That's even though I
was eating plenty of meat and fat.

So I was going by willpower, but started realizing that I cannot do
that for life and that, sooner or later, I would invent some
rationalization for giving up.

At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to
try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how,
supposedly, people ate up to 10,000 years ago, as hunter
gatherers, which is eating meat and fish, vegetables, fruits and
nuts. No grains, legumes, milk products, sugar.

So, I went on it a month ago, giving myself a month to see how it
works. I eat pretty much as much as I want, but only of what is
allowed.

The result is, I am no longer hungry and no longer think too much
about food. It just comes naturally to me that I eat as much as I
need, without a big conscious effort, portion weighing etc.

In that month, I gained about 0.07 lbs, which is obviously a
nonconsequential amount, not statistically significant.

So, so far, this diet is a winnder for me. I no longer need to
exercise my willpower on a daily basis. Especially because all those
foods are what I like, whereas grain products etc, I used to eat
because I considered them "healthy" and "prudent".

I want to thank, specifically, Cubit and Jenny for steering my mind
towards realizing that my hunger was due to me eating my morning bread
and too many junk carbs.

I will test my blood lipids after a while, as part of my physical, and
see how they change.

For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.

i
Chris Braun - 22 Aug 2004 01:07 GMT
>Despite the fact that I maintained my weight loss steadily and even
>lost a bit more, I felt hungry most of the day and got some food
>obsessions, thinking a bit too much about food, which are, actually,
>mental signs of starvation. (I can post a great text about that that
>describes starvation related mental symptoms).

Could you, please?  I think you referenced it before but I missed
where it appeared.

I don't have problems with hunger but I guess I think a fair bit about
food, since I still count calories.  I need to figure out what I want
to do for the rest of my life :-).  I don't feel a need for a
different sort of diet, but would like to find the right balance in
thinking about what I eat.  

Thanks!

Chris
262/141/ (145-150)
Ignoramus15381 - 22 Aug 2004 02:32 GMT
>>Despite the fact that I maintained my weight loss steadily and even
>>lost a bit more, I felt hungry most of the day and got some food
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Could you, please?  I think you referenced it before but I missed
> where it appeared.

See below. There is a lengthy text that is great as it gave me a good
perspective on whether I was having unusual, odd feelings, or simply
had psychological consequences of hunger.

> I don't have problems with hunger but I guess I think a fair bit about
> food, since I still count calories.  I need to figure out what I want
> to do for the rest of my life :-).  I don't feel a need for a
> different sort of diet, but would like to find the right balance in
> thinking about what I eat.  

I was first upset when my wife noted that I was thinking too much
about food, but then gave it a hard look. I see some people like my
wife and her dad, who are not very interested in food and grab
whatever there is, eat and forget about eating for a while. (I also am
noticing that as she lost 10 lbs, she is a bit more interested in
food). that was not my case at all.

Now, since a month ago, so far, it is very different, I eat pretty
much as much as I want, think less about food, etc. What I am afraid
is that perhaps I may regain weight on my new woe, but so far, it is
not happening.

Here goes...

http://river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html



Starvation Symptoms

The Effects Of Starvation On Behavior: Implications for Eating Disorders

by David M. Garner, Ph.D.

The following is an adaptation of a portion of a book chapter: Garner,
D.M. (1997). Psychoeducational principles in the treatment of eating
disorders. In: Handbook for Treatment of Eating
Disorders. (145-177). D.M. Garner & P.E. Garfinkel (Eds). New York,
NY: Guilford Press.

One of the most important advancements in the understanding of eating
disorders is the recognition that severe and prolonged dietary
restriction can lead to serious physical and psychological
complications (Garner, 1997). Many of the symptoms once thought to be
primary features of anorexia nervosa are actually symptoms of
starvation. Given what we know about the biology of weight regulation,
what is the impact of weight suppression on the individual? This is
particularly relevant for those with anorexia nervosa, but is also
important for people with eating disorders who have lost significant
amounts of body weight. Perhaps the most powerful illustration of the
effects of restrictive dieting and weight loss on behavior is an
experimental study conducted almost 50 years ago and published in 1950
by Ancel Keys and his colleagues at the University of Minnesota (Keys
et al., 1950). The experiment involved carefully studying 36 young,
healthy, psychologically normal men while restricting their caloric
intake for 6 months. More than 100 men volunteered for the study as an
alternative to military service; the 36 selected had the highest
levels of physical and psychological health, as well as the most
commitment to the objectives of the experiment. What makes the
"starvation study" (as it is commonly known) so important is that many
of the experiences observed in the volunteers are the same as those
experienced by patients with eating disorders. This section of this
chapter is a summary of the changes observed in the Minnesota study.

During the first 3 months of the semistarvation experiment, the
volunteers ate normally while their behavior, personality, and eating
patterns were studied in detail. During the next 6 months, the men
were restricted to approximately half of their former food intake and
lost, on average, approximately 25% of their former weight. Although
this was described as a study of "semistarvation," it is important to
keep in mind that cutting the men's rations to half of their former
intake is precisely the level of caloric deficit used to define
"conservative" treatments for obesity (Stunkard, 1993). The 6 months
of weight loss were followed by 3 months of rehabilitation, during
which the men were gradually refed. A subgroup was followed for almost
9 months after the re-feeding began. Most of the results were reported
for only 32 men, since 4 men were withdrawn either during or at the
end of the semistarvation phase. Although the individual responses to
weight loss varied considerably, the men experienced dramatic
physical, psychological, and social changes. In most cases, these
changes persisted during the rehabilitation or re-nourishment phase.

Attitudes and Behavior Related to Food and Eating

One of the most of the striking changes that occurred in the
volunteers was a dramatic increase in food preoccupations. The men
found concentration on their usual activities increasingly difficult,
because they became plagued by incessant thoughts of food and
eating. During the semistarvation phase of the experiement, food
became a principal topic of conversation, reading, and
daydreams. Rating scales revealed that the men experienced an increase
in thinking about food, as well as corresponding declines in interest
in sex and activity during semistarvation. The actual words used in
the original report are particularly revealing and the following
quotations followed by page numbers in parentheses are from Keys et
al. (1950) with permission of the University of Minnesota Press.

As starvation progressed, the number of men who toyed with their food
increased. They made what under normal conditions would be weird and
distasteful concoctions, (p. 832). . . Those who ate in the common
dining room smuggled out bits of food and consumed them on their bunks
in a long-drawn-out ritual, (p. 833). . . Toward the end of starvation
some of the men would dawdle for almost two hours after a meal which
previously they would have consumed in a matter of minutes,
(p. 833). . . Cookbooks, menus, and information bulletins on food
production became intensely interesting to many of the men who
previously h ad little or no interest in dietetics or agriculture,
(p. 833). [The volunteers] often reported that they got a vivid
vicarious pleasure from watching other persons eat or from just
smelling food. (p. 834)

In addition to cookbooks and collecting recipes, some of the men even
began collecting coffeepots, hot plates, and other kitchen
utensils. According to the original report, hoarding even extended to
non-food-related items such as "old books, unnecessary second-hand
clothes, knick knacks, and other 'junk.? Often after making such
purchases, which could be afforded only with sacrifice, the men would
be puzzled as to why they had bought such more or less useless
articles" (p. 837). One man even began rummaging through garbage
cans. This general tendency to hoard has been observed in starved
anorexic patients (Crisp, Hsu, & Harding, 1980) and even in rats
deprived of food (Fantino & Cabanac, 1980). Despite little interest in
culinary matters prior to the experiment, almost 40% of the men
mentioned cooking as part of their postexperiment plans. For some, the
fascination was so great that they actually changed occupations after
the experiment; three became chefs, and one went into agriculture!

The Minnesota subjects were often caught between conflicting desires
to gulp their food down ravenously and consume it slowly so that the
taste and odor of each morsel would be fully appreciated. Toward the
end of starvation some of the men would dawdle for almost two hours
over a meal which previously they would have consumed in a matter of
minutes. . .they did much planning as to how they would handle their
day's allotment of food. (p. 833) The men demanded that their food be
served hot, and they made unusual concoctions by mixing foods
together, as noted above. There was also a marked increase in the use
of salt and spices. The consumption of coffee and tea increased so
dramatically that the men had to be limited to 9 cups per day;
similarly, gum chewing became excessive and had to be limited after it
was discovered that one man was chewing as many as 40 packages of gum
a day and "developed a sore mouth from such continuous exercise"
(p. 835).

During the 12-week refeeding phase of the experiment, most of the
abnormal attitudes and behaviors in regard to food persisted. A small
number of men found that their difficulties in this area were quite
severe during the first 6 weeks of refeeding:

Binge Eating

During the restrictive dieting phase of the experiment, all of the
volunteers reported increased hunger. Some appeared able to tolerate
the experience fairly well, but for others it created intense concern
and led to a complete breakdown in control. Several men were unable to
adhere to their diets and reported episodes of binge eating followed
by self-reproach. During the eighth week of starvation, one volunteer
flagrantly broke the dietary rules, eating several sundaes and malted
milks; he even stole some penny candies. He promptly confessed the
whole episode, [and] became self-deprecatory" (p. 884). While working
in a grocery store, another man suffered a complete loss of will power
and ate several cookies, a sack of popcorn, and two overripe bananas
before he could "regain control" of himself. He immediately suffered a
severe emotional upset, with nausea, and upon returning to the
laboratory he vomited. . .He was self-deprecatory, expressing disgust
and self-criticism. (p. 887)

One man was released from the experiment at the end of the
semistarvation period because of suspicions that he was unable to
adhere to the diet. He experienced serious difficulties when
confronted with unlimited access to food "He repeatedly went through
the cycle of eating tremendous quantities of food, becoming sick, and
then starting all over again" (p. 890). During the refeeding phase of
the experiment, many of the men lost control of their appetites and
"ate more or less continuously" (p. 843).

Even after 12 weeks of refeeding, the men frequently complained of
increased hunger immediately following a large meal.

[One of the volunteers] ate immense meals (a daily estimate of
5,000-6,000 cal.) and yet started "snacking" an hour after he finished
a meal. [Another] ate as much as he could hold during the three
regular meals and ate snacks in the morning, afternoon and
evening. (p. 846). Several men had spells of nausea and vomiting. One
man required aspiration and hospitalization for several days. (p. 843)

During the weekends in particular, some of the men found it difficult
to stop eating. Their daily intake commonly ranged between 8,000 and
10,000 calories, and their eating patterns were described as follows:

Subject No. 20 stuffs himself until he is bursting at the seams, to
the point of being nearly sick and still feels hungry; No. 120
reported that he had to discipline himself to keep from eating so much
as to become ill; No. 1 ate until he was uncomfortably full; and
subject No. 30 had so little control over the mechanics of "piling it
in" that he simply had to stay away from food because he could not
find a point of satiation even when he was "full to the gills.". . ."I
ate practically all weekend," reported subject No. 26. . .Subject
No. 26 would just as soon have eaten six meals instead of
three. (p. 847)

After about 5 months of refeeding, the majority of the men reported
some normalization of their eating patterns, but for some the extreme
overconsumption persisted "No. 108 would eat and eat until he could
hardly swallow any more and then he felt like eating half an hour
later" (p. 847). More than 8 months after renourishment began, most
men had returned to normal eating patterns; however, a few were still
eating abnormal amounts "No. 9 ate about 25 percent more than his
pre-starvation amount; once he started to reduce but got so hungry he
could not stand it" (p. 847).

Factors distinguishing men who rapidly normalized their eating from
those who continued to eat prodigious amounts were not
identified. Nevertheless, the main findings here are as follows:
Serious binge eating developed in a subgroup of men, and this tendency
persisted in come cases for months after free access to food was
reintroduced; however, the majority of men reported gradually
returning to eating normal amounts of food after about 5 months of
refeeding. Thus, the fact that binge eating was experimentally
produced in some of these normal young men should temper speculations
about primary psychological disturbances as the cause of binge eating
in patients with eating disorders. These findings are supported by a
large body of research indicating that habitual dieters display marked
overcompensation in eating behavior that is similar to the binge
eating observed in eating disorders (Polivy & Herman, 1985, 1987;
Wardle & Beinart, 1981). Polivy et al., (1994) compared a group of
former World War II prisoners of war and non-interned veterans and
found that the former prisoners lost an average of 10.5 Kg. They also
reported a significantly higher frequency of binge eating than
non-interned veterans according to a self-report questionnaire sent by
mail.

Emotional and Personality Changes

The experimental procedures involved selecting volunteers who were the
most physically and psychologically robust. "The psychobiological
'stamina' of the subjects was unquestionably superior to that likely
to be found in any random or more generally representative sample of
the population" (pp. 915-916).

Although the subjects were psychologically healthy prior to the
experiment, most experienced significant emotional deterioration as a
result of semistarvation. Most of the subjects experienced periods
during which their emotional distress was quite severe; almost 20%
experienced extreme emotional deterioration that markedly interfered
with their functioning. Depression became more severe during the
course of the experiment. Elation was observed occasionally, but this
was inevitably followed by "low periods." Mood swings were extreme for
some of the volunteers:

[One subject] experienced a number of periods in which his spirits
were definitely high. . . These elated periods alternated with times
in which he suffered "a deep dark depression." (p. 903)

Irritability and frequent outbursts of anger were common, although the
men had quite tolerant dispositions prior to starvation. For most
subjects, anxiety became more evident. As the experiment progressed,
many of the formerly even-tempered men began biting their nails or
smoking because they felt nervous. Apathy also became common, and some
men who had been quite fastidious neglected various aspects of
personal hygiene. During semistarvation, two subjects developed
disturbances of "psychotic" proportions. During the refeeding period,
emotional disturbance did not vanish immediately but persisted for
several weeks, with some men actually becoming more depressed,
irritable, argumentative, and negativistic than they had been during
semistarvation. After two weeks of refeeding, one man reported his
extreme reaction in his diary:

I have been more depressed than ever in my life. . .I thought that
there was only one thing that would pull me out of the doldrums, that
is release from C.P.S. [the experiment] I decided to get rid of some
fingers. Ten days ago, I jacked up my car and let the car fall on
these fingers. . .It was premeditated. (pp. 894-895)

Several days latter, this man actually did chop off three fingers of
one hand in response to the stress.

Standardized personality testing with the Minnesota Multiphasic
Personality Inventory (MMPI) revealed that semistarvation resulted in
significant increases on the Depression, Hysteria, and Hpochondriasis
scales. The MMPI profiles for a small minority of subjects confirmed
the clinical impression of incredible deterioration as a result of
semistarvation. One man who scored well within normal limits at
initial testing, but after 10 weeks of semistarvation and a weight
loss of only about 4.5 kg (10 pounds, or approximately 7% of his
original body weight), gross personality disturbances were evident on
the MMPI. Depression and general disorganization were particularly
striking consequences of starvation for several of the men who became
the most emotionally disturbed.

Social and Sexual Changes

The extraordinary impact of semistarvation was reflected in the social
changes experienced by most of the volunteers. Although originally
quite gregarious, the men became progressively more withdrawn and
isolated. Humor and the sense of comradeship diminished amidst growing
feelings of social inadequacy. The volunteers' social contacts with
women also declined sharply during semistarvation. Those who continued
to see women socially found that the relationships became
strained. These changes are illustrated in the account from one man's
diary:

I am one of about three or four who still go out with girls. I fell in
love with a girl during the control period but I see her only
occasionally now. It's almost too much trouble to see her even when
she visits me in the lab. It requires effort to hold her
hand. Entertainment must be tame. If we see a show, the most
interesting part of it is contained in scenes where people are
eating. (p. 853)

Sexual interests were likewise drastically reduced. Masturbation,
sexual fantasies, and sexual impulses either ceased or became much
less common. One subject graphically stated that he had "no more
sexual feeling than a sick oyster." (Even this peculiar metaphor made
reference to food.) Keys et al. observed that "many of the men
welcomed the freedom from sexual tensions and frustrations normally
present in young adult men" (p. 840). The fact that starvation
perceptibly altered sexual urges and associated conflicts is of
particular interest, since it has been hypothesized that this process
is the driving force behind the dieting of many anorexia nervosa
patients. According to Crisp (1980), anorexia nervosa is a adaptive
disorder in the sense that it curtails sexual concerns for which the
adolescent feels unprepared. During rehabilitation, sexual interest
was slow to return. Even after 3 months, the men judged themselves to
be far from normal in this area. However, after 8 months of
renourishment, virtually all of the men had recovered their interest
in sex.

Cognitive and Physical Changes

The volunteers reported impaired concentration, alertness,
comprehension, and judgment during semistarvation; however, formal
intellectual testing revealed no signs of diminished intellectual
abilities. As the 6 months of semistarvation progressed, the
volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal
discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches;
hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor
control; edema (an excess of fluid causing swelling); hair loss;
decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold hands and feet);
visual disturbances (i.e., inability to focus, eye aches, "spots" in
the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the
ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling
sensations, especially in the hands or feet).

Various changes reflected an overall slowing of the body's
physiological processes. There were decreases in body temperature,
heart rate, and respiration, as well as in basal metabolic rate
(BMR). BMR is the amount of energy (in calories) that the body
requires at rest (i.e., no physical activity) in order to carry out
normal physiological processes. It accounts for about two-thirds of
the body's total energy needs, with the remainder being used during
physical activity. At the end of semistarvation, the men's BMRs had
dropped by about 40% from normal levels. This drop, as well as other
physical changes, reflects the body's extraordinary ability to adapt
to low caloric intake by reducing its need for energy. More recent
recent research has shown that metabolic rate is markedly reduced even
among dieters who do not have a history of dramatic weight loss
(Platte, Wurmser, Wade, Mecheril & Pirke, 1996). During refeeding,
Keys et al. found that metabolism speeded up, with those consuming the
greatest number of calories experiencing the largest rise in BMR. The
group of volunteers who received a relatively small increment in
calories during refeeding (400 calories more than during
semistarvation) had no rise in BMR for the first 3 weeks. Consuming
larger amounts of food caused a sharp increase in the energy burned
through metabolic processes.

Significance of the "Starvation Study"

As is readily apparent from the preceding description of the Minnesota
experiment, many of the symptoms that might have been thought to be
specific to anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa are actually the
results of starvation (Pirke & Ploog, 1987). These are not limited to
food and weight, but extend to virtually all areas of psychological
and social functioning. Since many of the symptoms that have been
postulated to cause these disorders may actually result from
undernutrition, it is absolutely essential that weight be returned to
"normal" levels so that psychological functioning can be accurately
assessed.

The profound effects of starvation also illustrate the tremendous
adaptive capacity of the human body and the intense biological
pressure on the organism to maintain a relatively consistent body
weight. This makes complete evolutionary sense. Over hundreds of
thousands of years of human evolution, a major threat to the survival
of the organism was starvation. If weight had not been carefully
modulated and controlled internally, early humans most certainly would
simply have died when food was scarce or when their interest was
captured by countless other aspects of living. The Keys et
al. "starvation study" illustrates how the human being becomes more
oriented toward food when starved and how other pursuits important to
the survival of the species (e.g., social and sexual functioning)
become subordinate to the primary drive toward food.

One of the most notable implications of the Minnesota experiment is
that it challenges the popular notion that body weight is easily
altered if one simply exercises a bit of "willpower." It also
demonstrates that the body is not simply "reprogrammed" at a lower set
point once weight loss has been achieved. The volunteers' experimental
diet was unsuccessful in overriding their bodies' strong propensity to
defend a particular weight level. Again, it is important to emphasize
that following the months of refeeding, the Minnesota volunteers did
not skyrocket into obesity. On the average, they gained back their
original weight plus about 10%; then, over the next 6 months, their
weight gradually declined. By the end of the follow-up period, they
were approaching their preexperiment weight levels.

Providing patients with eating disorders with the above account of the
semistarvation study can be very useful in giving them an
"explanation" for many of the emotional, cognitive and behavioral
symptoms that they experience. This as well as other educational
materials (Garner, 1997) is based on the assumption that eating
disorder patients often suffer from misconceptions about the factors
that cause and then maintain symptoms. It is further assumed that
patients may be less likely to persist in self-defeating symptoms if
they are made truly aware of the scientific evidence regarding factors
that perpetuate eating disorders. The educational approach conveys the
message that the responsibility for change rests with the patient;
this is aimed at increasing motivation and reducing defensiveness. The
operating assumption is that the patient is a responsible and rational
partner in a collaborative relationship.

References

Crisp, A. J. (1980)). Anorexia Nervosa: Let me be. London: Academic
Press.

Crisp, A. H., Hsu, L. K. G., & Harding, B. (1980). The starving
hoarder and voracious spender: Stealing in anorexia nervosa. Journal
of Psychosomatic Research, 24, 225-231.

Garner, D.M. (1997). Psychoeducational principles in the treatment of
eating disorders. In: Handbook for Treatment of Eating
Disorders. (145-177). D.M. Garner & P.E. Garfinkel (Eds). New York,
NY: Guilford Press.

Fantino, M., & Cabanac, M. (1980). Body weight regulation with a
proportional hoarding response in the rat. Physiology and Behavior,
24, 939-942.

Keys, A., Brozek, J., Henschel, A., Mickelsen, O., & Taylor,
H. L. (1950). The biology of human starvation (2 vols.). Minneapolis:
University of Minnesota Press.

Pirke, K. M., & Ploog, D. (1987). Biology of human starvation. In
P. J. V. Beumont, G. D. Burrows, & R. C. Casper (Eds.), Handbook of
eating disorders: Part 1 Anorexia and bulimia nervosa
(pp. 79-102). New York: Elsevier.

Platte, P., Wurmser, H., Wade, S. E., Mecheril, A., & Pirke,
K. M. (1996). Resting metabolic rate and diet-induced thermogenesis in
restrained and unrestrained eaters. International Journal of Eating
Disorders, 20, 33-41.

Polivy, J., Zeitlin, S.B., Herman, C.P. & Beal, A.L. (1994). Food
restriction and binge eating: A study of former prisioners of
war. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 103, 409-411.

Polivy, J., & Herman, C.P. (1985). Dieting and bingeing: A causal
analysis. American Psychologist, 40, 193-201.

Polivy, J., & Herman, C. P. (1987). Diagnosis and treatment of normal
eating. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 55, 635-644.

Stunkard, A. J. (1993). Introduction and overview. In A. J. Stunkard &
T. A. Wadden (Eds.), Obesity: Theory and therapy (2nd Ed.,
pp. 1-10). New York: Raven Press.

Wardle, J., & Beinart, H. (1981). Binge eating: A theoretical
review. British Journal of Clinical Psychology, 19-20, 97-109.



======================================================================
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GDQ/is_3_25/ai_58669772

Eating Behaviors of Victims of Semistarvation and Starvation-Research Volunteers Long After Food Was Plentifully Available

Behavior/source

Voracious appetites followed by large and rapid food
intake[9,11,16-18,21,44]
Lack of control and distress over amounts eaten[11,17,20,21]
Complaints of hunger despite huge meals[17,21]
Belief that eating triggers hunger[17]
Cravings and preference (carbohydrates, tats,
 sweets)[5,18-20,45]
 Obsession with food[10,11,14,15,17,19,45,46]
 Secrecy and defensiveness over food[9,10,17,18]
 New preoccupation with body shape and weight[17,47]
 Impulsivity (shopping for nonfood items, self-harm,
  anger, violence)[18,20,21]
  Scavenging or eating from garbage containers[11,18,20]
  Stealing, hiding, hoarding food[10,20,21]
  Manipulating others for food[9]
  Making bizarre mixtures of food[18]
  Eating unpalatable and inappropriate food (raw meat,
   scraps)[20,21]
   Thickening foods (with flour, oatmeal)[8]
   Excessive flavoring (eg, with tea, coffee, lemon crystals)[8]
   Excessive heating of food[24]
   Excessive spicing of food[24]
   Poor table manners (eg, licking knives and bottle lids,
    collecting crumbs, gnawing at bones)[24]
    "Souping" food and "filling up" with liquids[18,20]
    Preferring to eat in isolation[17,18]
    Self-induced and overeating-induced vomiting[8,19,20]
    Dreading having to choose foods to eat[17]
    Self-deprecation and negative affect from eating habits[17,20]
    Taking drastic measures to resist binges[20]
    Recidivist binge eating despite interference with quality
     of life[8,9,18,45,47]
JMA - 22 Aug 2004 03:04 GMT
>>>Despite the fact that I maintained my weight loss steadily and even
>>>lost a bit more, I felt hungry most of the day and got some food
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> perspective on whether I was having unusual, odd feelings, or simply
> had psychological consequences of hunger.

Yet when others, like me, were having these problems you were full of snarky
comments about my weight loss and didn't miss an opportunity to flaunt your
obvious superiority as a human being.

Hopefully all of this reading has helped you develop more of an
understanding, but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath based on recent
comments.

Jenn
Chris Braun - 22 Aug 2004 04:18 GMT
>http://river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html

{text snipped}

Thanks -- haven't read it yet, but I will.

Chris
Craig Smith - 22 Aug 2004 03:19 GMT
>For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.

I want to say "Bravo" and "Ew" in the same breath.

.:. Craig
Craig Smith - 22 Aug 2004 03:35 GMT
I wrote:

>>For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.
>
>I want to say "Bravo" and "Ew" in the same breath.

Actually, I was being facetious.  I've eaten squirrel stew.  Not
something I'd like every day, but no worse than bear or rabbit or
venison or rattlesnake---some are gamier than others.  It really all
depends on the stew, and when you've got good veggies with lots of
onions and garlic and maybe some tomatoes, meat is meat, whatever its
source.

I spent two years in Vermont.  A lot of the small towns up there have
annual wild game suppers.  As soon as hunting season is over, the
hunters cook up their prize catches in rather fanciful ways
(fricaseed, barbecued, blackened and pan-fried, etc.) and all the
people in town have a fun communal supper at the town hall (which is
usually the firehouse).  Each dish is clearly labelled, which is good,
since you probably want to know if that delicious meal was bear or
possum.

So I applaud your trying stewed squirrel.

Just not for breakfast.

.:. Craig
Ignoramus15381 - 22 Aug 2004 03:47 GMT
> I wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> .:. Craig

That's interesting. My friend is a hunter, so I ate some venison,
myself. And wild duck.

i
nimue - 22 Aug 2004 16:45 GMT
>> I wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> That's interesting. My friend is a hunter, so I ate some venison,
> myself. And wild duck.

I would be careful about venison right now.  There is some kind of a mad-cow
type disease striking people who eat venison.  If you want me to, I will try
to find some articles.

> i

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF."
Joss Whedon

Great T & A requires great DNA.
Penn (of Penn and Teller)

JMA - 22 Aug 2004 17:33 GMT
>>> I wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> try
> to find some articles.

Best of luck finding them because there has not been any conclusive
documentation that CWD has lead to disease in humans.  Speculation is not
proof, nor is scaremongering.

Jenn
Penelope Baker - 26 Aug 2004 00:07 GMT
only in the wisconsin/minnesota area where stupid hunters were feeding them
banned feed products.  :\

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Peace,
Pen
--
Pawbreakers - The Candy for Cats!
http://www.pawbreakers.com

> >> I wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> > i
Ray Audette - 26 Aug 2004 15:40 GMT
> Pawbreakers - The Candy for Cats!
> http://www.pawbreakers.com

For a paleo diet for cats see:
www.barfworld.com

Commercial cat food ( not Pawbreakers) is a major source of death for
cats.  That's really a shame when natural food for cats ( frozen or
live mice)is readily available and costs less than the crap most cats
are fed.

The State of Texas requires that I feed my hawk only what it eats in
Nature (the same things that cats eat in Nature).  Were I to feed him
commercial cat food, the state would take him away and charge me with
animal cruelity.

Why should I have lower standards for my cat, my dog, myself or my
child?

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com
A Ross - 26 Aug 2004 17:29 GMT
In article
<ic3Wc.54311$oW6.15050218@twister.nyc.rr.com>, "nimue"
<cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I would be careful about venison right now.  There is
> some kind of a mad-cow
> type disease striking people who eat venison.  If you
> want me to, I will try
> to find some articles.

"Wasting Disease" hasn't been very widespread, at least
not in the northeast US. I think most of the instances
of wasting in white tail herds was found in Wisconsin...

NYS DEC has done some testing here, but hasn't found
any signs in NY's herds. Which is good news for us, as
we eat venison at least once a week in one form or
another.

Amy (mmmm...tenderloin)
168/115
JMA - 27 Aug 2004 00:18 GMT
> In article
> <ic3Wc.54311$oW6.15050218@twister.nyc.rr.com>, "nimue"
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Amy (mmmm...tenderloin)
> 168/115

Here's a map of the known distribution of CWD
http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.map

It mainly affects Elk in the west and has only recently hit some Wisconsin
deer.  It's not up in my area and they do a very decent job testing.  I know
a number of hunters who have turned in heads for testing.

Jenn
A Ross - 27 Aug 2004 13:50 GMT
> Here's a map of the known distribution of CWD
> http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.map
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jenn

Thanks. NY DEC has a ban on feeding to keep the herds
from congregating in one area, and baiting has always
been a big no-no. People think they're doing the deer a
favor by feeding them through the winter, but it looks
like it can do more harm than good in many ways.

Amy
JMA - 27 Aug 2004 13:57 GMT
>> Here's a map of the known distribution of CWD
>> http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.map
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Amy

We had a ban last year but the hunters were able to get it lifted. :(

Based on the size of my herd, they don't need extra feeding though we do
toss out the occasional apple.

Jenn
yes, they're *my* herd - they live in *my* yard
A Ross - 27 Aug 2004 15:00 GMT
> We had a ban last year but the hunters were able to get
> it lifted. :(
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Jenn
> yes, they're *my* herd - they live in *my* yard

*Our* herd lives in our old apple orchard, except for
the two months a year DH WANTS them around. They
skedaddle from Oct. 1 to Dec. 1. Funny how that happens.

Amy
JMA - 27 Aug 2004 16:27 GMT
> > We had a ban last year but the hunters were able to get
> > it lifted. :(
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Amy

Deer aren't as stupid as people like to think :)

Our herd lives in our yard (13 wooded acres on a river) and beds down
not far from my kitchen window.  They are sorta safe in November
because of the zoning laws though we're in a kind of border area so it
can go either way We've allowed one of our elderly neighbors to take
one each year.  There's a picture in my yahoo photo album (the critters
one) of my dog watching one of the fawns from the window.
(http://photos.yahoo.com/bjenniferb)

Jenn
PL - 27 Aug 2004 19:22 GMT
> Our herd lives in our yard (13 wooded acres on a river) and beds down
> not far from my kitchen window.  They are sorta safe in November
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Jenn

Jenn - Your critters are adorable. My uncle used to have a cat that looked
*just* like s-head and had the same exact name. (Assuming that "s-head"
stands for what I think it stands for.)

Signature

PL
(320/298/170)
(First mini-goal: 299 Reached! 08/26/04)
(Second mini-goal: 279)

JMA - 27 Aug 2004 20:15 GMT
> > Our herd lives in our yard (13 wooded acres on a river) and beds down
> > not far from my kitchen window.  They are sorta safe in November
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> *just* like s-head and had the same exact name. (Assuming that "s-head"
> stands for what I think it stands for.)

Yes it does - his nickname rhymes with "kitty" :)

It's not the most profane cat name I've heard though.  A friend had a
cat name YMFY (pronounced yum-fee) where the Y stands for "you" in both
cases.

Jenn
PL - 27 Aug 2004 21:00 GMT
> It's not the most profane cat name I've heard though.  A friend had a
> cat name YMFY (pronounced yum-fee) where the Y stands for "you" in
> both cases.

Ha! I love profane pet names for some reason. ;)

Signature

PL
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(First mini-goal: 299 Reached! 08/26/04)
(Second mini-goal: 279)

A Ross - 27 Aug 2004 19:54 GMT
> bjenniferb

Very cute!

Our "lucky" is the spittin' image of your pup. Ours is
a lab/shephard we adopted from the pound. She's small
compared to the akitas we used to have.

Nice album, Jenn. Thanks for sharing.

Amy
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/ar18/Amy_Family.html
janice - 22 Aug 2004 11:35 GMT
>At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to
>try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>about food. It just comes naturally to me that I eat as much as I
>need, without a big conscious effort, portion weighing etc.

Ig, I am really happy for you if you've reached this point because to
me that would be eating like a "normal" person - something I don't
believe I'll ever do in this lifetime:(

I do recall, though, when you'd recently completed your weight loss
that you repeatedly told us how easy it was to lose, and then to
maintain, and I remember challenging you on this  - but I think since
then you have gone on to show that it wasn't all that easy after all.

Your description in another post of your wife's and FIL's attitude to
food is interesting, and particularly that your wife thinks more about
food since she lost weight.  As you know, my relationship with food
was distorted permanently after the first time I dieted - prior to
that I ate like you describe, with a bit of overindulgence one day
being cancelled out by perhaps not feeling like so much next day, but
with no conscious "intervention" from me in my own food intake. I'm
not saying your wife's behaviour around food is going to turn out like
mine did, but I do think once we've limited our food intake
deliberately it's extremely difficult to ever get back to having the
casual, automatically self-regulating attitude, to food that "normal"
people do.

I don't know much about the Paleo diet (I've kept well away from the
other thread on this) but it seems for you this could be a case of a
diet being more appropriate for maintenance rather than weight loss.  

janice
233/179/133
Ignoramus3159 - 22 Aug 2004 13:32 GMT
>>At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to
>>try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> me that would be eating like a "normal" person - something I don't
> believe I'll ever do in this lifetime:(

I did not think that it was possible for me, either. So I know your
feeling.

> I do recall, though, when you'd recently completed your weight loss
> that you repeatedly told us how easy it was to lose, and then to
> maintain, and I remember challenging you on this  - but I think since
> then you have gone on to show that it wasn't all that easy after all.

Losing weight was easy, like in a dream. Maintaining my weight loss
was not terribly difficult, as you know I managed to keep my weight
stable (without additional problems of monthly gains/losses that women
have), but the challenge was, as I mentioned quite a few times, that I
was hungry quite often.

> Your description in another post of your wife's and FIL's attitude to
> food is interesting, and particularly that your wife thinks more about
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> casual, automatically self-regulating attitude, to food that "normal"
> people do.

That is quite possibly true. Maybe it takes a radically low calorie
diet to alter appetite permanently.

> I don't know much about the Paleo diet (I've kept well away from the
> other thread on this) but it seems for you this could be a case of a
> diet being more appropriate for maintenance rather than weight loss.  

Well, yes, I am not losing on that diet, so far...

I read a statement womewhere that "low carb diets only take a person
to their ideal weight, but not below".

i
Carol Frilegh - 23 Aug 2004 00:48 GMT
> >>At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to
> >>try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> That is quite possibly true. Maybe it takes a radically low calorie
> diet to alter appetite permanently.

Disaccharide carbs are very addictive. Ditching them in fvor of
monosaccharides helps me with maintenance.

Signature

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******
There is no substitute for the right food

Ignoramus3159 - 23 Aug 2004 01:55 GMT
>> >>At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to
>> >>try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Disaccharide carbs are very addictive. Ditching them in fvor of
> monosaccharides helps me with maintenance.

Can you explain this a little bit?

i
jbuch - 22 Aug 2004 12:34 GMT
Congratulations on the diet change that eliminated you obsession with
food, and the need to exercise willpower.

Some of this seeming success could be just the change. Kind of like how
a vacation can make you feel so good.

Please report back on this topic each month, expecially the elimination
of the need to exercise will power.

SIgnificant point, that elimination of need to use will power.

Jim

> As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising.
> Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> i

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Ignoramus3159 - 22 Aug 2004 13:32 GMT
> Congratulations on the diet change that eliminated you obsession with
> food, and the need to exercise willpower.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> SIgnificant point, that elimination of need to use will power.

Thanks, I will report more on this.

i

> Jim
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>>
>> i
Dally - 24 Aug 2004 18:48 GMT
> Significant point, that elimination of need to use will power.

Yes, I caught that, too.  It was part of the requirement I had for
myself when devising what food program would work for me.  I had to
figure out a way to do a bunch of different stuff with my diet, but
having it be one that didn't require "willpower" to use was a top
priority.  I've always thought your need for willpower was a red flag
that you still hadn't solved the eating part of it.

I don't feel very comfortable buying into the Paleo diet any more than
Atkins or Zone or any named diet... there are pieces that work from each
angle, but fundamentally they're trying to sell a diet with their own
schtick.  IMO there's just no reason to avoid low-fat cottage cheese -
unless you personally happen to be allergic to dairy.  But continue
inching your way toward assimilating all this stuff.  You've got the
rest of your life to get it all figured out.

Dally
jmk - 24 Aug 2004 19:03 GMT
> IMO there's just no reason to avoid low-fat cottage cheese -
> unless you personally happen to be allergic to dairy.  

Speaking of cottage cheese, I was at Whole Foods yesterday and I bought
some cottage cheese (forgot on 'regular' grocery run).  I got the
Friendship brand.  I noticed that they have a no salt added version.
Have you tried that?  What did you think of it?

Signature

jmk in NC

Dally - 24 Aug 2004 19:09 GMT
>> IMO there's just no reason to avoid low-fat cottage cheese - unless
>> you personally happen to be allergic to dairy.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Friendship brand.  I noticed that they have a no salt added version.
> Have you tried that?  What did you think of it?

I tend to buy low-salt versions of prepared soups and broths whenever
possible, so I tried the low-salt cottage cheese.  Once.  It was foul.
Sometimes salt is good.  :-)

Dally
jmk - 24 Aug 2004 19:13 GMT
>>> IMO there's just no reason to avoid low-fat cottage cheese - unless
>>> you personally happen to be allergic to dairy.  
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I tend to buy low-salt versions of prepared soups and broths whenever
> possible,

me too

> so I tried the low-salt cottage cheese.  Once.  It was foul.
> Sometimes salt is good.  :-)

I just could not imagine what it would be like and they did not have it
in the "small" container so I passed...

Signature

jmk in NC

Dally - 24 Aug 2004 19:35 GMT
>> I tried the low-salt cottage cheese.  Once.  It was foul. Sometimes
>> salt is good.  :-)
>
> I just could not imagine what it would be like and they did not have it
> in the "small" container so I passed...

I think it must be like unsalted butter: meant to be used in baking recipes.

Dally
jmk - 24 Aug 2004 19:41 GMT
>>> I tried the low-salt cottage cheese.  Once.  It was foul. Sometimes
>>> salt is good.  :-)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I think it must be like unsalted butter: meant to be used in baking
> recipes.

That makes sense.  They also had whipped cottage cheese.

http://www.friendshipdairies.com/products/cottage.shtml

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jmk in NC

JMA - 25 Aug 2004 00:05 GMT
>>>> I tried the low-salt cottage cheese.  Once.  It was foul. Sometimes
>>>> salt is good.  :-)
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> http://www.friendshipdairies.com/products/cottage.shtml

I put mine in the blender sometimes - makes a good topping in place of sour
cream or just plain whipped up and smooth as a snack.

Jenn
rebbylynn - 25 Aug 2004 21:11 GMT
> That makes sense.  They also had whipped cottage cheese.
>
> http://www.friendshipdairies.com/products/cottage.shtml

MMM.  I love Friendship's whipped cottage cheese.  I have that with some
blueberries (lots of antioxidants!) as a snack.  Delish!

Lindsay
156/131/125
Long time lurker, rare poster ;)
MH - 27 Aug 2004 05:07 GMT
> >> I tried the low-salt cottage cheese.  Once.  It was foul. Sometimes
> >> salt is good.  :-)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Dally

Oh no, I only use unsalted butter. I would never buy salted butter. I want
to add salt myself.

Martha
Ignoramus13955 - 24 Aug 2004 19:13 GMT
>> Significant point, that elimination of need to use will power.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> priority.  I've always thought your need for willpower was a red flag
> that you still hadn't solved the eating part of it.

I assume that by saying "you", you mean me, the OP, and not jbuch.

If so, then I mainly agree with you. It is a question of degree, in
the sense that I still need to use a bit of wilpower to, say, not eat
foods that are not on my list, but it is a considerably better
situation compared to thinking about food for much of the day.

Yesterday, I ate very little for dinner because I did not feel like
eating. That was unimaginable before.

> I don't feel very comfortable buying into the Paleo diet any more than
> Atkins or Zone or any named diet... there are pieces that work from each
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> inching your way toward assimilating all this stuff.  You've got the
> rest of your life to get it all figured out.

The dairy question is a good one, I am also not sure just what is so
wrong with dairy. For the first month, I tried to be stricter in
following the exact diet as described, just so that I have a baseline.
Even so, I did eat butter and cheese and a tiny bit of milk.

i
nimue - 22 Aug 2004 16:43 GMT
> As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising.
> Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.

Noooooooooooooo!  How could you!?  Is this a picture of you?  ;-)
http://jack.finalapproach.net/cat-squirrel-a.jpg

> i

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influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF."
Joss Whedon

Great T & A requires great DNA.
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Roger Zoul - 23 Aug 2004 16:02 GMT
:: As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising.
:: Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
::
:: For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.

Where I'm from, people regularly ate wild squirrel.  It wouldn't bother me
one bit if they got back on more people's menu, as they seem to get into my
attic every year, costing me lot of money to get them out.

I'm going to try Paleo in September.  Can you comment on your energy levels?
Did you see any changes as far as exercise is concerned?  What precentage of
fruits are you eating?
Luna - 23 Aug 2004 16:13 GMT
> :: For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.
>
> Where I'm from, people regularly ate wild squirrel.  It wouldn't bother me
> one bit if they got back on more people's menu, as they seem to get into my
> attic every year, costing me lot of money to get them out.

Get a cat.  Squirrels are my cat's favorite food.

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I have only 3 flaws.  My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 16:22 GMT
>> :: For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Get a cat.  Squirrels are my cat's favorite food.

Does your cat stink after eating a squirrel?

How does he or she catch them?

i
Luna - 23 Aug 2004 17:29 GMT
> >> :: For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> i

Oh, oops.  I was talking about a former cat.  Should have said "were my
cat's favorite food."  I don't know how he caught them, we just used to
find their feet and tails and a few blood stains on the ground after he'd
been out for a while.  He didn't stink any worse than usual after eating
them.  Our new cat is an indoor kitty though, the only wildlife he gets to
kill are bugs, and he doesn't eat them.

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I have only 3 flaws.  My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 17:39 GMT
> Oh, oops.  I was talking about a former cat.  Should have said "were my
> cat's favorite food."  I don't know how he caught them, we just used to
> find their feet and tails and a few blood stains on the ground after he'd
> been out for a while.  He didn't stink any worse than usual after eating
> them.  Our new cat is an indoor kitty though, the only wildlife he gets to
> kill are bugs, and he doesn't eat them.

Very impressive! I wish I could have some animal that would destroy
these squirrels.

i
Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 16:21 GMT
>:: As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising.
>:: Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> one bit if they got back on more people's menu, as they seem to get into my
> attic every year, costing me lot of money to get them out.

Squirrels made such a mess on my deck, I was quite tired of them. So
I fully understand you.

> I'm going to try Paleo in September.  Can you comment on your energy levels?

They are lower. I feel like a more normal person now, before, I had
too much energy and had hard times stopping sufficiently to rest etc.

It is a relatively small change though. It is understandable, since I
did not make dramatic changes in my diet, when I moved to paleo,
relatively speaking.

> Did you see any changes as far as exercise is concerned?  What precentage of
> fruits are you eating?

I eat almost no fruits, for now, but a lot of vegetables. We have a
garden and a lot of tomatoes are ripening. (tomatoes are technically
fruits). I eat apples a few times per week.

I want to see how the diet works, for a couple more months, and then
will start adding fruits.

For now, I eat, pretty much, as much as I want.

i
 
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