Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / August 2004
Paleo diet -- one month results
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Ignoramus15381 - 22 Aug 2004 00:34 GMT As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising. Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep 10.
I ate less, reduced carbs some, but not radically.
Despite the fact that I maintained my weight loss steadily and even lost a bit more, I felt hungry most of the day and got some food obsessions, thinking a bit too much about food, which are, actually, mental signs of starvation. (I can post a great text about that that describes starvation related mental symptoms).
My main food desires were meaty, fatty things. That's even though I was eating plenty of meat and fat.
So I was going by willpower, but started realizing that I cannot do that for life and that, sooner or later, I would invent some rationalization for giving up.
At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how, supposedly, people ate up to 10,000 years ago, as hunter gatherers, which is eating meat and fish, vegetables, fruits and nuts. No grains, legumes, milk products, sugar.
So, I went on it a month ago, giving myself a month to see how it works. I eat pretty much as much as I want, but only of what is allowed.
The result is, I am no longer hungry and no longer think too much about food. It just comes naturally to me that I eat as much as I need, without a big conscious effort, portion weighing etc.
In that month, I gained about 0.07 lbs, which is obviously a nonconsequential amount, not statistically significant.
So, so far, this diet is a winnder for me. I no longer need to exercise my willpower on a daily basis. Especially because all those foods are what I like, whereas grain products etc, I used to eat because I considered them "healthy" and "prudent".
I want to thank, specifically, Cubit and Jenny for steering my mind towards realizing that my hunger was due to me eating my morning bread and too many junk carbs.
I will test my blood lipids after a while, as part of my physical, and see how they change.
For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel.
i
Chris Braun - 22 Aug 2004 01:07 GMT >Despite the fact that I maintained my weight loss steadily and even >lost a bit more, I felt hungry most of the day and got some food >obsessions, thinking a bit too much about food, which are, actually, >mental signs of starvation. (I can post a great text about that that >describes starvation related mental symptoms). Could you, please? I think you referenced it before but I missed where it appeared.
I don't have problems with hunger but I guess I think a fair bit about food, since I still count calories. I need to figure out what I want to do for the rest of my life :-). I don't feel a need for a different sort of diet, but would like to find the right balance in thinking about what I eat.
Thanks!
Chris 262/141/ (145-150)
Ignoramus15381 - 22 Aug 2004 02:32 GMT >>Despite the fact that I maintained my weight loss steadily and even >>lost a bit more, I felt hungry most of the day and got some food [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Could you, please? I think you referenced it before but I missed > where it appeared. See below. There is a lengthy text that is great as it gave me a good perspective on whether I was having unusual, odd feelings, or simply had psychological consequences of hunger.
> I don't have problems with hunger but I guess I think a fair bit about > food, since I still count calories. I need to figure out what I want > to do for the rest of my life :-). I don't feel a need for a > different sort of diet, but would like to find the right balance in > thinking about what I eat. I was first upset when my wife noted that I was thinking too much about food, but then gave it a hard look. I see some people like my wife and her dad, who are not very interested in food and grab whatever there is, eat and forget about eating for a while. (I also am noticing that as she lost 10 lbs, she is a bit more interested in food). that was not my case at all.
Now, since a month ago, so far, it is very different, I eat pretty much as much as I want, think less about food, etc. What I am afraid is that perhaps I may regain weight on my new woe, but so far, it is not happening.
Here goes...
http://river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html
Starvation Symptoms
The Effects Of Starvation On Behavior: Implications for Eating Disorders
by David M. Garner, Ph.D.
The following is an adaptation of a portion of a book chapter: Garner, D.M. (1997). Psychoeducational principles in the treatment of eating disorders. In: Handbook for Treatment of Eating Disorders. (145-177). D.M. Garner & P.E. Garfinkel (Eds). New York, NY: Guilford Press.
One of the most important advancements in the understanding of eating disorders is the recognition that severe and prolonged dietary restriction can lead to serious physical and psychological complications (Garner, 1997). Many of the symptoms once thought to be primary features of anorexia nervosa are actually symptoms of starvation. Given what we know about the biology of weight regulation, what is the impact of weight suppression on the individual? This is particularly relevant for those with anorexia nervosa, but is also important for people with eating disorders who have lost significant amounts of body weight. Perhaps the most powerful illustration of the effects of restrictive dieting and weight loss on behavior is an experimental study conducted almost 50 years ago and published in 1950 by Ancel Keys and his colleagues at the University of Minnesota (Keys et al., 1950). The experiment involved carefully studying 36 young, healthy, psychologically normal men while restricting their caloric intake for 6 months. More than 100 men volunteered for the study as an alternative to military service; the 36 selected had the highest levels of physical and psychological health, as well as the most commitment to the objectives of the experiment. What makes the "starvation study" (as it is commonly known) so important is that many of the experiences observed in the volunteers are the same as those experienced by patients with eating disorders. This section of this chapter is a summary of the changes observed in the Minnesota study.
During the first 3 months of the semistarvation experiment, the volunteers ate normally while their behavior, personality, and eating patterns were studied in detail. During the next 6 months, the men were restricted to approximately half of their former food intake and lost, on average, approximately 25% of their former weight. Although this was described as a study of "semistarvation," it is important to keep in mind that cutting the men's rations to half of their former intake is precisely the level of caloric deficit used to define "conservative" treatments for obesity (Stunkard, 1993). The 6 months of weight loss were followed by 3 months of rehabilitation, during which the men were gradually refed. A subgroup was followed for almost 9 months after the re-feeding began. Most of the results were reported for only 32 men, since 4 men were withdrawn either during or at the end of the semistarvation phase. Although the individual responses to weight loss varied considerably, the men experienced dramatic physical, psychological, and social changes. In most cases, these changes persisted during the rehabilitation or re-nourishment phase.
Attitudes and Behavior Related to Food and Eating
One of the most of the striking changes that occurred in the volunteers was a dramatic increase in food preoccupations. The men found concentration on their usual activities increasingly difficult, because they became plagued by incessant thoughts of food and eating. During the semistarvation phase of the experiement, food became a principal topic of conversation, reading, and daydreams. Rating scales revealed that the men experienced an increase in thinking about food, as well as corresponding declines in interest in sex and activity during semistarvation. The actual words used in the original report are particularly revealing and the following quotations followed by page numbers in parentheses are from Keys et al. (1950) with permission of the University of Minnesota Press.
As starvation progressed, the number of men who toyed with their food increased. They made what under normal conditions would be weird and distasteful concoctions, (p. 832). . . Those who ate in the common dining room smuggled out bits of food and consumed them on their bunks in a long-drawn-out ritual, (p. 833). . . Toward the end of starvation some of the men would dawdle for almost two hours after a meal which previously they would have consumed in a matter of minutes, (p. 833). . . Cookbooks, menus, and information bulletins on food production became intensely interesting to many of the men who previously h ad little or no interest in dietetics or agriculture, (p. 833). [The volunteers] often reported that they got a vivid vicarious pleasure from watching other persons eat or from just smelling food. (p. 834)
In addition to cookbooks and collecting recipes, some of the men even began collecting coffeepots, hot plates, and other kitchen utensils. According to the original report, hoarding even extended to non-food-related items such as "old books, unnecessary second-hand clothes, knick knacks, and other 'junk.? Often after making such purchases, which could be afforded only with sacrifice, the men would be puzzled as to why they had bought such more or less useless articles" (p. 837). One man even began rummaging through garbage cans. This general tendency to hoard has been observed in starved anorexic patients (Crisp, Hsu, & Harding, 1980) and even in rats deprived of food (Fantino & Cabanac, 1980). Despite little interest in culinary matters prior to the experiment, almost 40% of the men mentioned cooking as part of their postexperiment plans. For some, the fascination was so great that they actually changed occupations after the experiment; three became chefs, and one went into agriculture!
The Minnesota subjects were often caught between conflicting desires to gulp their food down ravenously and consume it slowly so that the taste and odor of each morsel would be fully appreciated. Toward the end of starvation some of the men would dawdle for almost two hours over a meal which previously they would have consumed in a matter of minutes. . .they did much planning as to how they would handle their day's allotment of food. (p. 833) The men demanded that their food be served hot, and they made unusual concoctions by mixing foods together, as noted above. There was also a marked increase in the use of salt and spices. The consumption of coffee and tea increased so dramatically that the men had to be limited to 9 cups per day; similarly, gum chewing became excessive and had to be limited after it was discovered that one man was chewing as many as 40 packages of gum a day and "developed a sore mouth from such continuous exercise" (p. 835).
During the 12-week refeeding phase of the experiment, most of the abnormal attitudes and behaviors in regard to food persisted. A small number of men found that their difficulties in this area were quite severe during the first 6 weeks of refeeding:
Binge Eating
During the restrictive dieting phase of the experiment, all of the volunteers reported increased hunger. Some appeared able to tolerate the experience fairly well, but for others it created intense concern and led to a complete breakdown in control. Several men were unable to adhere to their diets and reported episodes of binge eating followed by self-reproach. During the eighth week of starvation, one volunteer flagrantly broke the dietary rules, eating several sundaes and malted milks; he even stole some penny candies. He promptly confessed the whole episode, [and] became self-deprecatory" (p. 884). While working in a grocery store, another man suffered a complete loss of will power and ate several cookies, a sack of popcorn, and two overripe bananas before he could "regain control" of himself. He immediately suffered a severe emotional upset, with nausea, and upon returning to the laboratory he vomited. . .He was self-deprecatory, expressing disgust and self-criticism. (p. 887)
One man was released from the experiment at the end of the semistarvation period because of suspicions that he was unable to adhere to the diet. He experienced serious difficulties when confronted with unlimited access to food "He repeatedly went through the cycle of eating tremendous quantities of food, becoming sick, and then starting all over again" (p. 890). During the refeeding phase of the experiment, many of the men lost control of their appetites and "ate more or less continuously" (p. 843).
Even after 12 weeks of refeeding, the men frequently complained of increased hunger immediately following a large meal.
[One of the volunteers] ate immense meals (a daily estimate of 5,000-6,000 cal.) and yet started "snacking" an hour after he finished a meal. [Another] ate as much as he could hold during the three regular meals and ate snacks in the morning, afternoon and evening. (p. 846). Several men had spells of nausea and vomiting. One man required aspiration and hospitalization for several days. (p. 843)
During the weekends in particular, some of the men found it difficult to stop eating. Their daily intake commonly ranged between 8,000 and 10,000 calories, and their eating patterns were described as follows:
Subject No. 20 stuffs himself until he is bursting at the seams, to the point of being nearly sick and still feels hungry; No. 120 reported that he had to discipline himself to keep from eating so much as to become ill; No. 1 ate until he was uncomfortably full; and subject No. 30 had so little control over the mechanics of "piling it in" that he simply had to stay away from food because he could not find a point of satiation even when he was "full to the gills.". . ."I ate practically all weekend," reported subject No. 26. . .Subject No. 26 would just as soon have eaten six meals instead of three. (p. 847)
After about 5 months of refeeding, the majority of the men reported some normalization of their eating patterns, but for some the extreme overconsumption persisted "No. 108 would eat and eat until he could hardly swallow any more and then he felt like eating half an hour later" (p. 847). More than 8 months after renourishment began, most men had returned to normal eating patterns; however, a few were still eating abnormal amounts "No. 9 ate about 25 percent more than his pre-starvation amount; once he started to reduce but got so hungry he could not stand it" (p. 847).
Factors distinguishing men who rapidly normalized their eating from those who continued to eat prodigious amounts were not identified. Nevertheless, the main findings here are as follows: Serious binge eating developed in a subgroup of men, and this tendency persisted in come cases for months after free access to food was reintroduced; however, the majority of men reported gradually returning to eating normal amounts of food after about 5 months of refeeding. Thus, the fact that binge eating was experimentally produced in some of these normal young men should temper speculations about primary psychological disturbances as the cause of binge eating in patients with eating disorders. These findings are supported by a large body of research indicating that habitual dieters display marked overcompensation in eating behavior that is similar to the binge eating observed in eating disorders (Polivy & Herman, 1985, 1987; Wardle & Beinart, 1981). Polivy et al., (1994) compared a group of former World War II prisoners of war and non-interned veterans and found that the former prisoners lost an average of 10.5 Kg. They also reported a significantly higher frequency of binge eating than non-interned veterans according to a self-report questionnaire sent by mail.
Emotional and Personality Changes
The experimental procedures involved selecting volunteers who were the most physically and psychologically robust. "The psychobiological 'stamina' of the subjects was unquestionably superior to that likely to be found in any random or more generally representative sample of the population" (pp. 915-916).
Although the subjects were psychologically healthy prior to the experiment, most experienced significant emotional deterioration as a result of semistarvation. Most of the subjects experienced periods during which their emotional distress was quite severe; almost 20% experienced extreme emotional deterioration that markedly interfered with their functioning. Depression became more severe during the course of the experiment. Elation was observed occasionally, but this was inevitably followed by "low periods." Mood swings were extreme for some of the volunteers:
[One subject] experienced a number of periods in which his spirits were definitely high. . . These elated periods alternated with times in which he suffered "a deep dark depression." (p. 903)
Irritability and frequent outbursts of anger were common, although the men had quite tolerant dispositions prior to starvation. For most subjects, anxiety became more evident. As the experiment progressed, many of the formerly even-tempered men began biting their nails or smoking because they felt nervous. Apathy also became common, and some men who had been quite fastidious neglected various aspects of personal hygiene. During semistarvation, two subjects developed disturbances of "psychotic" proportions. During the refeeding period, emotional disturbance did not vanish immediately but persisted for several weeks, with some men actually becoming more depressed, irritable, argumentative, and negativistic than they had been during semistarvation. After two weeks of refeeding, one man reported his extreme reaction in his diary:
I have been more depressed than ever in my life. . .I thought that there was only one thing that would pull me out of the doldrums, that is release from C.P.S. [the experiment] I decided to get rid of some fingers. Ten days ago, I jacked up my car and let the car fall on these fingers. . .It was premeditated. (pp. 894-895)
Several days latter, this man actually did chop off three fingers of one hand in response to the stress.
Standardized personality testing with the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) revealed that semistarvation resulted in significant increases on the Depression, Hysteria, and Hpochondriasis scales. The MMPI profiles for a small minority of subjects confirmed the clinical impression of incredible deterioration as a result of semistarvation. One man who scored well within normal limits at initial testing, but after 10 weeks of semistarvation and a weight loss of only about 4.5 kg (10 pounds, or approximately 7% of his original body weight), gross personality disturbances were evident on the MMPI. Depression and general disorganization were particularly striking consequences of starvation for several of the men who became the most emotionally disturbed.
Social and Sexual Changes
The extraordinary impact of semistarvation was reflected in the social changes experienced by most of the volunteers. Although originally quite gregarious, the men became progressively more withdrawn and isolated. Humor and the sense of comradeship diminished amidst growing feelings of social inadequacy. The volunteers' social contacts with women also declined sharply during semistarvation. Those who continued to see women socially found that the relationships became strained. These changes are illustrated in the account from one man's diary:
I am one of about three or four who still go out with girls. I fell in love with a girl during the control period but I see her only occasionally now. It's almost too much trouble to see her even when she visits me in the lab. It requires effort to hold her hand. Entertainment must be tame. If we see a show, the most interesting part of it is contained in scenes where people are eating. (p. 853)
Sexual interests were likewise drastically reduced. Masturbation, sexual fantasies, and sexual impulses either ceased or became much less common. One subject graphically stated that he had "no more sexual feeling than a sick oyster." (Even this peculiar metaphor made reference to food.) Keys et al. observed that "many of the men welcomed the freedom from sexual tensions and frustrations normally present in young adult men" (p. 840). The fact that starvation perceptibly altered sexual urges and associated conflicts is of particular interest, since it has been hypothesized that this process is the driving force behind the dieting of many anorexia nervosa patients. According to Crisp (1980), anorexia nervosa is a adaptive disorder in the sense that it curtails sexual concerns for which the adolescent feels unprepared. During rehabilitation, sexual interest was slow to return. Even after 3 months, the men judged themselves to be far from normal in this area. However, after 8 months of renourishment, virtually all of the men had recovered their interest in sex.
Cognitive and Physical Changes
The volunteers reported impaired concentration, alertness, comprehension, and judgment during semistarvation; however, formal intellectual testing revealed no signs of diminished intellectual abilities. As the 6 months of semistarvation progressed, the volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid causing swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold hands and feet); visual disturbances (i.e., inability to focus, eye aches, "spots" in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling sensations, especially in the hands or feet).
Various changes reflected an overall slowing of the body's physiological processes. There were decreases in body temperature, heart rate, and respiration, as well as in basal metabolic rate (BMR). BMR is the amount of energy (in calories) that the body requires at rest (i.e., no physical activity) in order to carry out normal physiological processes. It accounts for about two-thirds of the body's total energy needs, with the remainder being used during physical activity. At the end of semistarvation, the men's BMRs had dropped by about 40% from normal levels. This drop, as well as other physical changes, reflects the body's extraordinary ability to adapt to low caloric intake by reducing its need for energy. More recent recent research has shown that metabolic rate is markedly reduced even among dieters who do not have a history of dramatic weight loss (Platte, Wurmser, Wade, Mecheril & Pirke, 1996). During refeeding, Keys et al. found that metabolism speeded up, with those consuming the greatest number of calories experiencing the largest rise in BMR. The group of volunteers who received a relatively small increment in calories during refeeding (400 calories more than during semistarvation) had no rise in BMR for the first 3 weeks. Consuming larger amounts of food caused a sharp increase in the energy burned through metabolic processes.
Significance of the "Starvation Study"
As is readily apparent from the preceding description of the Minnesota experiment, many of the symptoms that might have been thought to be specific to anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa are actually the results of starvation (Pirke & Ploog, 1987). These are not limited to food and weight, but extend to virtually all areas of psychological and social functioning. Since many of the symptoms that have been postulated to cause these disorders may actually result from undernutrition, it is absolutely essential that weight be returned to "normal" levels so that psychological functioning can be accurately assessed.
The profound effects of starvation also illustrate the tremendous adaptive capacity of the human body and the intense biological pressure on the organism to maintain a relatively consistent body weight. This makes complete evolutionary sense. Over hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, a major threat to the survival of the organism was starvation. If weight had not been carefully modulated and controlled internally, early humans most certainly would simply have died when food was scarce or when their interest was captured by countless other aspects of living. The Keys et al. "starvation study" illustrates how the human being becomes more oriented toward food when starved and how other pursuits important to the survival of the species (e.g., social and sexual functioning) become subordinate to the primary drive toward food.
One of the most notable implications of the Minnesota experiment is that it challenges the popular notion that body weight is easily altered if one simply exercises a bit of "willpower." It also demonstrates that the body is not simply "reprogrammed" at a lower set point once weight loss has been achieved. The volunteers' experimental diet was unsuccessful in overriding their bodies' strong propensity to defend a particular weight level. Again, it is important to emphasize that following the months of refeeding, the Minnesota volunteers did not skyrocket into obesity. On the average, they gained back their original weight plus about 10%; then, over the next 6 months, their weight gradually declined. By the end of the follow-up period, they were approaching their preexperiment weight levels.
Providing patients with eating disorders with the above account of the semistarvation study can be very useful in giving them an "explanation" for many of the emotional, cognitive and behavioral symptoms that they experience. This as well as other educational materials (Garner, 1997) is based on the assumption that eating disorder patients often suffer from misconceptions about the factors that cause and then maintain symptoms. It is further assumed that patients may be less likely to persist in self-defeating symptoms if they are made truly aware of the scientific evidence regarding factors that perpetuate eating disorders. The educational approach conveys the message that the responsibility for change rests with the patient; this is aimed at increasing motivation and reducing defensiveness. The operating assumption is that the patient is a responsible and rational partner in a collaborative relationship.
References
Crisp, A. J. (1980)). Anorexia Nervosa: Let me be. London: Academic Press.
Crisp, A. H., Hsu, L. K. G., & Harding, B. (1980). The starving hoarder and voracious spender: Stealing in anorexia nervosa. Journal of Psychosomatic Research, 24, 225-231.
Garner, D.M. (1997). Psychoeducational principles in the treatment of eating disorders. In: Handbook for Treatment of Eating Disorders. (145-177). D.M. Garner & P.E. Garfinkel (Eds). New York, NY: Guilford Press.
Fantino, M., & Cabanac, M. (1980). Body weight regulation with a proportional hoarding response in the rat. Physiology and Behavior, 24, 939-942.
Keys, A., Brozek, J., Henschel, A., Mickelsen, O., & Taylor, H. L. (1950). The biology of human starvation (2 vols.). Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.
Pirke, K. M., & Ploog, D. (1987). Biology of human starvation. In P. J. V. Beumont, G. D. Burrows, & R. C. Casper (Eds.), Handbook of eating disorders: Part 1 Anorexia and bulimia nervosa (pp. 79-102). New York: Elsevier.
Platte, P., Wurmser, H., Wade, S. E., Mecheril, A., & Pirke, K. M. (1996). Resting metabolic rate and diet-induced thermogenesis in restrained and unrestrained eaters. International Journal of Eating Disorders, 20, 33-41.
Polivy, J., Zeitlin, S.B., Herman, C.P. & Beal, A.L. (1994). Food restriction and binge eating: A study of former prisioners of war. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 103, 409-411.
Polivy, J., & Herman, C.P. (1985). Dieting and bingeing: A causal analysis. American Psychologist, 40, 193-201.
Polivy, J., & Herman, C. P. (1987). Diagnosis and treatment of normal eating. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 55, 635-644.
Stunkard, A. J. (1993). Introduction and overview. In A. J. Stunkard & T. A. Wadden (Eds.), Obesity: Theory and therapy (2nd Ed., pp. 1-10). New York: Raven Press.
Wardle, J., & Beinart, H. (1981). Binge eating: A theoretical review. British Journal of Clinical Psychology, 19-20, 97-109.
====================================================================== http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GDQ/is_3_25/ai_58669772
Eating Behaviors of Victims of Semistarvation and Starvation-Research Volunteers Long After Food Was Plentifully Available
Behavior/source
Voracious appetites followed by large and rapid food intake[9,11,16-18,21,44] Lack of control and distress over amounts eaten[11,17,20,21] Complaints of hunger despite huge meals[17,21] Belief that eating triggers hunger[17] Cravings and preference (carbohydrates, tats, sweets)[5,18-20,45] Obsession with food[10,11,14,15,17,19,45,46] Secrecy and defensiveness over food[9,10,17,18] New preoccupation with body shape and weight[17,47] Impulsivity (shopping for nonfood items, self-harm, anger, violence)[18,20,21] Scavenging or eating from garbage containers[11,18,20] Stealing, hiding, hoarding food[10,20,21] Manipulating others for food[9] Making bizarre mixtures of food[18] Eating unpalatable and inappropriate food (raw meat, scraps)[20,21] Thickening foods (with flour, oatmeal)[8] Excessive flavoring (eg, with tea, coffee, lemon crystals)[8] Excessive heating of food[24] Excessive spicing of food[24] Poor table manners (eg, licking knives and bottle lids, collecting crumbs, gnawing at bones)[24] "Souping" food and "filling up" with liquids[18,20] Preferring to eat in isolation[17,18] Self-induced and overeating-induced vomiting[8,19,20] Dreading having to choose foods to eat[17] Self-deprecation and negative affect from eating habits[17,20] Taking drastic measures to resist binges[20] Recidivist binge eating despite interference with quality of life[8,9,18,45,47]
JMA - 22 Aug 2004 03:04 GMT >>>Despite the fact that I maintained my weight loss steadily and even >>>lost a bit more, I felt hungry most of the day and got some food [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > perspective on whether I was having unusual, odd feelings, or simply > had psychological consequences of hunger. Yet when others, like me, were having these problems you were full of snarky comments about my weight loss and didn't miss an opportunity to flaunt your obvious superiority as a human being.
Hopefully all of this reading has helped you develop more of an understanding, but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath based on recent comments.
Jenn
Chris Braun - 22 Aug 2004 04:18 GMT >http://river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html {text snipped}
Thanks -- haven't read it yet, but I will.
Chris
Craig Smith - 22 Aug 2004 03:19 GMT >For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel. I want to say "Bravo" and "Ew" in the same breath.
.:. Craig
Craig Smith - 22 Aug 2004 03:35 GMT I wrote:
>>For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel. > >I want to say "Bravo" and "Ew" in the same breath. Actually, I was being facetious. I've eaten squirrel stew. Not something I'd like every day, but no worse than bear or rabbit or venison or rattlesnake---some are gamier than others. It really all depends on the stew, and when you've got good veggies with lots of onions and garlic and maybe some tomatoes, meat is meat, whatever its source.
I spent two years in Vermont. A lot of the small towns up there have annual wild game suppers. As soon as hunting season is over, the hunters cook up their prize catches in rather fanciful ways (fricaseed, barbecued, blackened and pan-fried, etc.) and all the people in town have a fun communal supper at the town hall (which is usually the firehouse). Each dish is clearly labelled, which is good, since you probably want to know if that delicious meal was bear or possum.
So I applaud your trying stewed squirrel.
Just not for breakfast.
.:. Craig
Ignoramus15381 - 22 Aug 2004 03:47 GMT > I wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > .:. Craig That's interesting. My friend is a hunter, so I ate some venison, myself. And wild duck.
i
nimue - 22 Aug 2004 16:45 GMT >> I wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > That's interesting. My friend is a hunter, so I ate some venison, > myself. And wild duck. I would be careful about venison right now. There is some kind of a mad-cow type disease striking people who eat venison. If you want me to, I will try to find some articles.
> i
 Signature nimue
"If I had created reality television I would have had a much greater influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon
Great T & A requires great DNA. Penn (of Penn and Teller)
JMA - 22 Aug 2004 17:33 GMT >>> I wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > try > to find some articles. Best of luck finding them because there has not been any conclusive documentation that CWD has lead to disease in humans. Speculation is not proof, nor is scaremongering.
Jenn
Penelope Baker - 26 Aug 2004 00:07 GMT only in the wisconsin/minnesota area where stupid hunters were feeding them banned feed products. :\
 Signature Peace, Pen -- Pawbreakers - The Candy for Cats! http://www.pawbreakers.com
> >> I wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > > i Ray Audette - 26 Aug 2004 15:40 GMT > Pawbreakers - The Candy for Cats! > http://www.pawbreakers.com For a paleo diet for cats see: www.barfworld.com
Commercial cat food ( not Pawbreakers) is a major source of death for cats. That's really a shame when natural food for cats ( frozen or live mice)is readily available and costs less than the crap most cats are fed.
The State of Texas requires that I feed my hawk only what it eats in Nature (the same things that cats eat in Nature). Were I to feed him commercial cat food, the state would take him away and charge me with animal cruelity.
Why should I have lower standards for my cat, my dog, myself or my child?
Ray Audette Author "NeanderThin" www.NeanderThin.com
A Ross - 26 Aug 2004 17:29 GMT In article <ic3Wc.54311$oW6.15050218@twister.nyc.rr.com>, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I would be careful about venison right now. There is > some kind of a mad-cow > type disease striking people who eat venison. If you > want me to, I will try > to find some articles. "Wasting Disease" hasn't been very widespread, at least not in the northeast US. I think most of the instances of wasting in white tail herds was found in Wisconsin...
NYS DEC has done some testing here, but hasn't found any signs in NY's herds. Which is good news for us, as we eat venison at least once a week in one form or another.
Amy (mmmm...tenderloin) 168/115
JMA - 27 Aug 2004 00:18 GMT > In article > <ic3Wc.54311$oW6.15050218@twister.nyc.rr.com>, "nimue" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Amy (mmmm...tenderloin) > 168/115 Here's a map of the known distribution of CWD http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.map
It mainly affects Elk in the west and has only recently hit some Wisconsin deer. It's not up in my area and they do a very decent job testing. I know a number of hunters who have turned in heads for testing.
Jenn
A Ross - 27 Aug 2004 13:50 GMT > Here's a map of the known distribution of CWD > http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.map [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jenn Thanks. NY DEC has a ban on feeding to keep the herds from congregating in one area, and baiting has always been a big no-no. People think they're doing the deer a favor by feeding them through the winter, but it looks like it can do more harm than good in many ways.
Amy
JMA - 27 Aug 2004 13:57 GMT >> Here's a map of the known distribution of CWD >> http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.map [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Amy We had a ban last year but the hunters were able to get it lifted. :(
Based on the size of my herd, they don't need extra feeding though we do toss out the occasional apple.
Jenn yes, they're *my* herd - they live in *my* yard
A Ross - 27 Aug 2004 15:00 GMT > We had a ban last year but the hunters were able to get > it lifted. :( [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Jenn > yes, they're *my* herd - they live in *my* yard *Our* herd lives in our old apple orchard, except for the two months a year DH WANTS them around. They skedaddle from Oct. 1 to Dec. 1. Funny how that happens.
Amy
JMA - 27 Aug 2004 16:27 GMT > > We had a ban last year but the hunters were able to get > > it lifted. :( [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Amy Deer aren't as stupid as people like to think :)
Our herd lives in our yard (13 wooded acres on a river) and beds down not far from my kitchen window. They are sorta safe in November because of the zoning laws though we're in a kind of border area so it can go either way We've allowed one of our elderly neighbors to take one each year. There's a picture in my yahoo photo album (the critters one) of my dog watching one of the fawns from the window. (http://photos.yahoo.com/bjenniferb)
Jenn
PL - 27 Aug 2004 19:22 GMT > Our herd lives in our yard (13 wooded acres on a river) and beds down > not far from my kitchen window. They are sorta safe in November [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jenn Jenn - Your critters are adorable. My uncle used to have a cat that looked *just* like s-head and had the same exact name. (Assuming that "s-head" stands for what I think it stands for.)
 Signature PL (320/298/170) (First mini-goal: 299 Reached! 08/26/04) (Second mini-goal: 279)
JMA - 27 Aug 2004 20:15 GMT > > Our herd lives in our yard (13 wooded acres on a river) and beds down > > not far from my kitchen window. They are sorta safe in November [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > *just* like s-head and had the same exact name. (Assuming that "s-head" > stands for what I think it stands for.) Yes it does - his nickname rhymes with "kitty" :)
It's not the most profane cat name I've heard though. A friend had a cat name YMFY (pronounced yum-fee) where the Y stands for "you" in both cases.
Jenn
PL - 27 Aug 2004 21:00 GMT > It's not the most profane cat name I've heard though. A friend had a > cat name YMFY (pronounced yum-fee) where the Y stands for "you" in > both cases. Ha! I love profane pet names for some reason. ;)
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A Ross - 27 Aug 2004 19:54 GMT > bjenniferb Very cute!
Our "lucky" is the spittin' image of your pup. Ours is a lab/shephard we adopted from the pound. She's small compared to the akitas we used to have.
Nice album, Jenn. Thanks for sharing.
Amy http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/ar18/Amy_Family.html
janice - 22 Aug 2004 11:35 GMT >At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to >try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >about food. It just comes naturally to me that I eat as much as I >need, without a big conscious effort, portion weighing etc. Ig, I am really happy for you if you've reached this point because to me that would be eating like a "normal" person - something I don't believe I'll ever do in this lifetime:(
I do recall, though, when you'd recently completed your weight loss that you repeatedly told us how easy it was to lose, and then to maintain, and I remember challenging you on this - but I think since then you have gone on to show that it wasn't all that easy after all.
Your description in another post of your wife's and FIL's attitude to food is interesting, and particularly that your wife thinks more about food since she lost weight. As you know, my relationship with food was distorted permanently after the first time I dieted - prior to that I ate like you describe, with a bit of overindulgence one day being cancelled out by perhaps not feeling like so much next day, but with no conscious "intervention" from me in my own food intake. I'm not saying your wife's behaviour around food is going to turn out like mine did, but I do think once we've limited our food intake deliberately it's extremely difficult to ever get back to having the casual, automatically self-regulating attitude, to food that "normal" people do.
I don't know much about the Paleo diet (I've kept well away from the other thread on this) but it seems for you this could be a case of a diet being more appropriate for maintenance rather than weight loss.
janice 233/179/133
Ignoramus3159 - 22 Aug 2004 13:32 GMT >>At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to >>try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > me that would be eating like a "normal" person - something I don't > believe I'll ever do in this lifetime:( I did not think that it was possible for me, either. So I know your feeling.
> I do recall, though, when you'd recently completed your weight loss > that you repeatedly told us how easy it was to lose, and then to > maintain, and I remember challenging you on this - but I think since > then you have gone on to show that it wasn't all that easy after all. Losing weight was easy, like in a dream. Maintaining my weight loss was not terribly difficult, as you know I managed to keep my weight stable (without additional problems of monthly gains/losses that women have), but the challenge was, as I mentioned quite a few times, that I was hungry quite often.
> Your description in another post of your wife's and FIL's attitude to > food is interesting, and particularly that your wife thinks more about [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > casual, automatically self-regulating attitude, to food that "normal" > people do. That is quite possibly true. Maybe it takes a radically low calorie diet to alter appetite permanently.
> I don't know much about the Paleo diet (I've kept well away from the > other thread on this) but it seems for you this could be a case of a > diet being more appropriate for maintenance rather than weight loss. Well, yes, I am not losing on that diet, so far...
I read a statement womewhere that "low carb diets only take a person to their ideal weight, but not below".
i
Carol Frilegh - 23 Aug 2004 00:48 GMT > >>At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to > >>try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > That is quite possibly true. Maybe it takes a radically low calorie > diet to alter appetite permanently. Disaccharide carbs are very addictive. Ditching them in fvor of monosaccharides helps me with maintenance.
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Ignoramus3159 - 23 Aug 2004 01:55 GMT >> >>At some point, I read about paleo diet, read one book, and decided to >> >>try it. The idea of a paleo diet is to eat an approximation of how, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Disaccharide carbs are very addictive. Ditching them in fvor of > monosaccharides helps me with maintenance. Can you explain this a little bit?
i
jbuch - 22 Aug 2004 12:34 GMT Congratulations on the diet change that eliminated you obsession with food, and the need to exercise willpower.
Some of this seeming success could be just the change. Kind of like how a vacation can make you feel so good.
Please report back on this topic each month, expecially the elimination of the need to exercise will power.
SIgnificant point, that elimination of need to use will power.
Jim
> As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising. > Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > i
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Ignoramus3159 - 22 Aug 2004 13:32 GMT > Congratulations on the diet change that eliminated you obsession with > food, and the need to exercise willpower. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > SIgnificant point, that elimination of need to use will power. Thanks, I will report more on this.
i
> Jim > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> >> i Dally - 24 Aug 2004 18:48 GMT > Significant point, that elimination of need to use will power. Yes, I caught that, too. It was part of the requirement I had for myself when devising what food program would work for me. I had to figure out a way to do a bunch of different stuff with my diet, but having it be one that didn't require "willpower" to use was a top priority. I've always thought your need for willpower was a red flag that you still hadn't solved the eating part of it.
I don't feel very comfortable buying into the Paleo diet any more than Atkins or Zone or any named diet... there are pieces that work from each angle, but fundamentally they're trying to sell a diet with their own schtick. IMO there's just no reason to avoid low-fat cottage cheese - unless you personally happen to be allergic to dairy. But continue inching your way toward assimilating all this stuff. You've got the rest of your life to get it all figured out.
Dally
jmk - 24 Aug 2004 19:03 GMT > IMO there's just no reason to avoid low-fat cottage cheese - > unless you personally happen to be allergic to dairy. Speaking of cottage cheese, I was at Whole Foods yesterday and I bought some cottage cheese (forgot on 'regular' grocery run). I got the Friendship brand. I noticed that they have a no salt added version. Have you tried that? What did you think of it?
 Signature jmk in NC
Dally - 24 Aug 2004 19:09 GMT >> IMO there's just no reason to avoid low-fat cottage cheese - unless >> you personally happen to be allergic to dairy. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Friendship brand. I noticed that they have a no salt added version. > Have you tried that? What did you think of it? I tend to buy low-salt versions of prepared soups and broths whenever possible, so I tried the low-salt cottage cheese. Once. It was foul. Sometimes salt is good. :-)
Dally
jmk - 24 Aug 2004 19:13 GMT >>> IMO there's just no reason to avoid low-fat cottage cheese - unless >>> you personally happen to be allergic to dairy. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I tend to buy low-salt versions of prepared soups and broths whenever > possible, me too
> so I tried the low-salt cottage cheese. Once. It was foul. > Sometimes salt is good. :-) I just could not imagine what it would be like and they did not have it in the "small" container so I passed...
 Signature jmk in NC
Dally - 24 Aug 2004 19:35 GMT >> I tried the low-salt cottage cheese. Once. It was foul. Sometimes >> salt is good. :-) > > I just could not imagine what it would be like and they did not have it > in the "small" container so I passed... I think it must be like unsalted butter: meant to be used in baking recipes.
Dally
jmk - 24 Aug 2004 19:41 GMT >>> I tried the low-salt cottage cheese. Once. It was foul. Sometimes >>> salt is good. :-) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I think it must be like unsalted butter: meant to be used in baking > recipes. That makes sense. They also had whipped cottage cheese.
http://www.friendshipdairies.com/products/cottage.shtml
 Signature jmk in NC
JMA - 25 Aug 2004 00:05 GMT >>>> I tried the low-salt cottage cheese. Once. It was foul. Sometimes >>>> salt is good. :-) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.friendshipdairies.com/products/cottage.shtml I put mine in the blender sometimes - makes a good topping in place of sour cream or just plain whipped up and smooth as a snack.
Jenn
rebbylynn - 25 Aug 2004 21:11 GMT > That makes sense. They also had whipped cottage cheese. > > http://www.friendshipdairies.com/products/cottage.shtml MMM. I love Friendship's whipped cottage cheese. I have that with some blueberries (lots of antioxidants!) as a snack. Delish!
Lindsay 156/131/125 Long time lurker, rare poster ;)
MH - 27 Aug 2004 05:07 GMT > >> I tried the low-salt cottage cheese. Once. It was foul. Sometimes > >> salt is good. :-) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dally Oh no, I only use unsalted butter. I would never buy salted butter. I want to add salt myself.
Martha
Ignoramus13955 - 24 Aug 2004 19:13 GMT >> Significant point, that elimination of need to use will power. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > priority. I've always thought your need for willpower was a red flag > that you still hadn't solved the eating part of it. I assume that by saying "you", you mean me, the OP, and not jbuch.
If so, then I mainly agree with you. It is a question of degree, in the sense that I still need to use a bit of wilpower to, say, not eat foods that are not on my list, but it is a considerably better situation compared to thinking about food for much of the day.
Yesterday, I ate very little for dinner because I did not feel like eating. That was unimaginable before.
> I don't feel very comfortable buying into the Paleo diet any more than > Atkins or Zone or any named diet... there are pieces that work from each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > inching your way toward assimilating all this stuff. You've got the > rest of your life to get it all figured out. The dairy question is a good one, I am also not sure just what is so wrong with dairy. For the first month, I tried to be stricter in following the exact diet as described, just so that I have a baseline. Even so, I did eat butter and cheese and a tiny bit of milk.
i
nimue - 22 Aug 2004 16:43 GMT > As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising. > Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel. Noooooooooooooo! How could you!? Is this a picture of you? ;-) http://jack.finalapproach.net/cat-squirrel-a.jpg
> i
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Roger Zoul - 23 Aug 2004 16:02 GMT :: As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising. :: Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] :: :: For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel. Where I'm from, people regularly ate wild squirrel. It wouldn't bother me one bit if they got back on more people's menu, as they seem to get into my attic every year, costing me lot of money to get them out.
I'm going to try Paleo in September. Can you comment on your energy levels? Did you see any changes as far as exercise is concerned? What precentage of fruits are you eating?
Luna - 23 Aug 2004 16:13 GMT > :: For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel. > > Where I'm from, people regularly ate wild squirrel. It wouldn't bother me > one bit if they got back on more people's menu, as they seem to get into my > attic every year, costing me lot of money to get them out. Get a cat. Squirrels are my cat's favorite food.
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Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 16:22 GMT >> :: For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Get a cat. Squirrels are my cat's favorite food. Does your cat stink after eating a squirrel?
How does he or she catch them?
i
Luna - 23 Aug 2004 17:29 GMT > >> :: For breakfast tomorrow, I am going to eat a stewed squirrel. > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > i Oh, oops. I was talking about a former cat. Should have said "were my cat's favorite food." I don't know how he caught them, we just used to find their feet and tails and a few blood stains on the ground after he'd been out for a while. He didn't stink any worse than usual after eating them. Our new cat is an indoor kitty though, the only wildlife he gets to kill are bugs, and he doesn't eat them.
 Signature Michelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.
Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 17:39 GMT > Oh, oops. I was talking about a former cat. Should have said "were my > cat's favorite food." I don't know how he caught them, we just used to > find their feet and tails and a few blood stains on the ground after he'd > been out for a while. He didn't stink any worse than usual after eating > them. Our new cat is an indoor kitty though, the only wildlife he gets to > kill are bugs, and he doesn't eat them. Very impressive! I wish I could have some animal that would destroy these squirrels.
i
Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 16:21 GMT >:: As you might know, I lost 50 lbs by "eating less" and exercising. >:: Almost a year ago I reached normal weight, the anniversary is on Sep [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > one bit if they got back on more people's menu, as they seem to get into my > attic every year, costing me lot of money to get them out. Squirrels made such a mess on my deck, I was quite tired of them. So I fully understand you.
> I'm going to try Paleo in September. Can you comment on your energy levels? They are lower. I feel like a more normal person now, before, I had too much energy and had hard times stopping sufficiently to rest etc.
It is a relatively small change though. It is understandable, since I did not make dramatic changes in my diet, when I moved to paleo, relatively speaking.
> Did you see any changes as far as exercise is concerned? What precentage of > fruits are you eating? I eat almost no fruits, for now, but a lot of vegetables. We have a garden and a lot of tomatoes are ripening. (tomatoes are technically fruits). I eat apples a few times per week.
I want to see how the diet works, for a couple more months, and then will start adding fruits.
For now, I eat, pretty much, as much as I want.
i
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