Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / August 2004
Friday 20 August
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Annabel Smyth - 21 Aug 2004 11:34 GMT Absolutely *exhausted* yesterday, overdid it at the ice rink on Thursday night.
Food: 12.45 2 small potatoes, 1/2 Romaine lettuce, "Nice bits" salad (tomato, avocado, cucumber, pepper, low-fat tomato/basil dressing; as last night - finishing it), 1 small tin baked beans
13.30 2 apricots, lemon ice lolly
14.30 1 tablespoon fresh fruit salad
17.30 small bunch seedless grapes (I had been asleep and was very thirsty)
20.00 Butternut squash and mushroom risotto Blackberry/raspberry parfait 5 olives (needed something savoury, and thought olives would be better than cheese).
Exercise: none Pedometer: 520 - how on earth did it get *that* high, I was asleep most of the day!
 Signature Annabel - "Mrs Redboots" 90/88/80kg
janice - 21 Aug 2004 23:11 GMT >Exercise: none >Pedometer: 520 - how on earth did it get *that* high, I was asleep most >of the day! Perhaps you were sleepwalking?
janice
Annabel Smyth - 22 Aug 2004 12:27 GMT janice wrote in alt.support.diet on Sat, 21 Aug 2004:
>>Exercise: none >>Pedometer: 520 - how on earth did it get *that* high, I was asleep most >>of the day! > >Perhaps you were sleepwalking? I shouldn't be a bit surprised! Actually, what does surprise me is that it takes over 130 steps just to go to bed.....
 Signature Annabel - "Mrs Redboots" 90/88/80kg
Dally - 22 Aug 2004 00:18 GMT > Absolutely *exhausted* yesterday, overdid it at the ice rink on Thursday > night. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Pedometer: 520 - how on earth did it get *that* high, I was asleep most > of the day! It's so hard to read this and not critique it.
Dally
Annabel Smyth - 22 Aug 2004 12:29 GMT Dally wrote in alt.support.diet on Sat, 21 Aug 2004:
>> Absolutely *exhausted* yesterday, overdid it at the ice rink on >>Thursday night. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >It's so hard to read this and not critique it. Don't let me stop you.... actually, apart from not taking any exercise, I was pleased with Friday. Ate exactly what I meant to, apart from the grapes, and really, a small bunch of grapes isn't exactly going to sabotage a diet!
 Signature Annabel - "Mrs Redboots" 90/88/80kg
Dally - 22 Aug 2004 20:06 GMT > Dally wrote in alt.support.diet on Sat, 21 Aug 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > grapes, and really, a small bunch of grapes isn't exactly going to > sabotage a diet! It wasn't adequate fuel for a human body. Barely any seed oils, no fish fats, no nut butters... your skin must be awful and you probably feel tired all the time and your metabolism is probably slowing down to a crawl as we speak...
And almost no protein. Any weight you're losing is coming from muscle, quite possibly your heart muscle, as well as fat.
In short, your diet appears to be 80% carbs. Lovely for proper bowel movements, but no-where near a balanced diet. There just isn't anyone out there saying 80% carbs is the way to lose fat and maintain the loss. Even the low-fat people say 20% fat, 15% protein, 65% carbs which is the highest carb content of anyone I've ever seen (and those diets don't work for most people.)
Yes, I know, now you mention how wonderfully your low-fat diet worked for you. Lady, I've seen your picture. It didn't work.
And now you tell me how wrong I am because you know your [fat] body best and you're going to continue with your screwed up methods and I say that's just fine. It's just hard to watch.
Dally
Annabel Smyth - 23 Aug 2004 10:05 GMT Dally wrote in alt.support.diet on Sun, 22 Aug 2004:
>> Dally wrote in alt.support.diet on Sat, 21 Aug 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >feel tired all the time and your metabolism is probably slowing down to >crawl as we speak... Excuse me, but my skin is fine - I take a fish-oil supplement every morning. As a matter of fact, I can't digest oily fish these days (except, thankfully, trout and salmon), so never take them. I don't eat nut butters, they are not a normal part of our diet here, although one can buy peanut butter.
>And almost no protein. Bollocks! There was *masses* of protein - baked beans at lunch, cheese (in the risotto) *and* yogurt *and* fromage frais (in the parfait) at supper - what more could you want?
> Any weight you're losing is coming from muscle, quite possibly your >heart muscle, as well as fat. I don't think so!
>In short, your diet appears to be 80% carbs. Lovely for proper bowel >movements, but no-where near a balanced diet. There just isn't anyone >out there saying 80% carbs is the way to lose fat and maintain the >loss. Even the low-fat people say 20% fat, 15% protein, 65% carbs which >the highest carb content of anyone I've ever seen (and those diets >don't work for most people.) Oh, fifty pounds weight loss is "not working" is it?
I reckoned that was rather a high-fat day - I had avocado *and* cheese.
>Yes, I know, now you mention how wonderfully your low-fat diet worked >for you. Lady, I've seen your picture. It didn't work. *Do* feel free to point out where I have posted a picture of myself ten years ago on my web page? And unless and until you have seen such a photograph, you can't comment.
I have already said that I lost 50 lbs TEN YEARS AGO, you understand? That was back in 1993, so actually eleven years ago, now I come to think of it - I started on 1 September 1993. In February 1994, I can't quite remember the exact date but it was either 12/02/94 or 19/02/94, I reached my then goal weight of 147 lbs, and that day I gave up smoking. I had a long-standing (>20 years) habit of 40 cigarettes a day. Now, I don't know whether you have ever been unfortunate enough to be addicted to nicotine - for your sake, I sincerely hope not - but if you have, you will know that it is *extremely* difficult to give up. It is also extremely difficult to avoid putting on weight, as one nibbles the whole time. Then, of course, I went through the Change of Life, which also puts the pounds on....
Of course, it's possible that you think that 50 lbs is not a significant weight loss?
 Signature Annabel - "Mrs Redboots" 90/88/80kg
Gloria - 23 Aug 2004 14:34 GMT Annabel, I thin that each person NEEDS to eat Thier own way as we are from differant coulters and all. I don't post what I'm eating anyore! I ask qustions at times but I get into trouble when I say what I eat! I don't eat like the average people here but that doesn't matter!!! I eat almost NO meat but many beans! I am just not a high calorie meat eater !!! Hang in there!! You look beautiful to me:) To skate is so wonderful and when I gave it up broke my heart :( I was young(37) and it was no longer a part of my winter fun.
Stay strong and you will do fine!!!!
glo
Dally - 23 Aug 2004 16:03 GMT > I have already said that I lost 50 lbs TEN YEARS AGO, you understand? I do understand. And you keep acting like it worked. Losing it and keeping it off are two completely different things. We're teaching people how to lose FAT and keep it off. You can lose WEIGHT temporarily through any number of methods, including low-fatting it.
Wouldn't you like to know more about how to partition your weight loss preferentially towards fat? Wouldn't you like to know more about how we are finding ways of managing our food intake so we're not hungry or deprived and can eat socially and just get used to doing this for the rest of our lives?
> That was back in 1993, so actually eleven years ago, now I come to think > of it - I started on 1 September 1993. In February 1994, I can't quite [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > time. Then, of course, I went through the Change of Life, which also > puts the pounds on.... I totally agree that it makes sense that you regained the weight. What doesn't make sense is that you are trying to repeat it when nothing has changed: you're still a non-smoking menopausal woman. Your metabolism is worse than it was all those years ago. There's just no reason to think in ten years you won't be heavier than you are right now if you low-fat away another 50 pounds.
> Of course, it's possible that you think that 50 lbs is not a significant > weight loss? Good luck, Annabel. It's been hard watching you trundle down your path. One of the reasons I'm posting in this group at all is to spread the word to people like you that there is a SANE way to do this and it means changing the way I viewed food, relearning how to fuel my body, and changing the way I viewed weight. I had hoped to share that message with you. But you're closing your eyes and covering your ears and humming Hail Britainia while I talk. Goodbye.
Dally
Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 16:27 GMT Very few people, on any diets, are able to lose substantial amount of weight and keep it off. Low fatting may be the worst diet, but other diets do have great rates of failure, as well. People go through "life changes", lose interest, etc.
E.g., with my latest thyroid issues, I have much less interested in my diet stuff. I keep eating in the same manner as before, and exercise, so I probably won't regain, but my interest in dieting is lower. I can see now how life changes may make people lose interest in weight maintenance. A part of the reason why I think less about dieting, these days, is that I am less hungry and think less about food in general.
Hopefully, this will resolve well and I will expect to live a long time, ahd hopefully, my interest in diet will continue.
So, singling out a diet as the only reason for failure, is not right. Diet is only part of the picture.
i
PL - 23 Aug 2004 17:05 GMT > I do understand. And you keep acting like it worked. Losing it and > keeping it off are two completely different things. We're teaching [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > deprived and can eat socially and just get used to doing this for the > rest of our lives? Well, I'd like to know, lol. That said, are lowfat diets always bad? Why are they suboptimal?
 Signature PL (320/309/170) (First mini-goal: 299)
Patricia Heil - 23 Aug 2004 17:43 GMT > > I do understand. And you keep acting like it worked. Losing it and > > keeping it off are two completely different things. We're teaching [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Well, I'd like to know, lol. That said, are lowfat diets always bad? Why are > they suboptimal? What's bad about low-fat? You eat lots of lovely fruit and tangy plain yogurt instead of ice cream. Not using butter on your bread isn't such a hardship when it's really good bread. You use mustard and ketchup in your sandwiches but not mayonnaise. You leave the cheese out of your chili but you add peppers -- yumm! You make oven fries with Pam and Mrs. Dash seasonings instead of deep frying. You can still have wine and beer and so on (7 calories a gram instead of 9 for fat but it's still empty calories so watch it). I have a ton of low-fat recipes that taste great.
You're not losing flavor unless you are using the wrong recipe book. So what's the problem?
Dally - 23 Aug 2004 18:17 GMT > What's bad about low-fat? You eat lots of lovely fruit and tangy plain > yogurt instead of ice cream. Not using butter on your bread isn't such a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You're not losing flavor unless you are using the wrong recipe book. So > what's the problem? I really don't have a problem with people avoiding saturated fat. It's mostly the combination of low-fat with high-carb that causes the problems. Low-fat where "low-fat" means only 30% of your calories come from fat versus 60% isn't a problem for me. It's when avoiding fat leads to avoiding protein and maximizing carbs that we run into problems.
Low-fat high-carb can be yummy. It just turns out to be a difficult way to lose fat and keep it off because of the way bodies work, especially as women age. How about you, Patricia? What's your success withh low-fat/high-carb?
Mary M. is the only one that comes to mind of someone who lost significant fat and kept it off that way. And I bet if I analyzed her diet I'd find that "low-fat" to her didn't mean 75% carbs.
Dally
Patricia Heil - 23 Aug 2004 21:12 GMT > > What's bad about low-fat? You eat lots of lovely fruit and tangy plain > > yogurt instead of ice cream. Not using butter on your bread isn't such a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Dally I'm low-fat high fiber because of cholesterol problems and because I have fewer cravings. I haven't heard a thing from the FDA about how "carb" is defined so I ignore it.
Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 21:55 GMT > I'm low-fat high fiber because of cholesterol problems and because I have > fewer cravings. I haven't heard a thing from the FDA about how "carb" is > defined so I ignore it. Patricia, if you permit me to ask, has your diet lowered your cholesterol? What is your cholesterol now? In the spirit of disclosure, mine is 175, HDL 56, LDL 103, trigs 82. I do not mean to compare whose cholesterol is better, that would be silly, I am curious to know if your diet is taking your cholesterol where it should be.
Aquarijen - 25 Aug 2004 18:40 GMT > > I'm low-fat high fiber because of cholesterol problems and because I have > > fewer cravings. I haven't heard a thing from the FDA about how "carb" is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > compare whose cholesterol is better, that would be silly, I am curious > to know if your diet is taking your cholesterol where it should be. That would indeed be silly. My cholesterol is better than your cholesterol, lol!
:) Jen
Mary M - Ohio - 25 Aug 2004 19:44 GMT > Mary M. is the only one that comes to mind of someone who lost > significant fat and kept it off that way. And I bet if I analyzed her > diet I'd find that "low-fat" to her didn't mean 75% carbs. I lost weight by saying "no" to sugar for good-- that took care of 100 lbs. permanently and saved my sanity. The rest has come about through a diet that is currently 5 meat servings, 4 grain servings, 3 fruit servings, 2T olive oil and unlimited vegetables. 100 lbs off for 19 years, 75 more off for 2.5 years. Getting rid of foods that are both high-carb AND high-fat is what made the difference for me.
Mary M 325-154-148
Heywood Mogroot - 24 Aug 2004 05:12 GMT > "PL" <plushlifeTAKETHIShome@OUTyahoo.com> wrote in message
> What's bad about low-fat? You eat lots of lovely fruit and tangy plain > yogurt instead of ice cream. Ice cream doesn't belong in *any* eating plan IMV (too calorie dense to enjoy without blowing the day's calorie limit), but I fail to see the benefits of low-fat yogurt vs. normal yogurt, or similarly 0% milk (aka water) vs. 1% milk.
Declaring war on fat is simply missing the point, I'm afraid, at least for me. I never would have been able to lose 50lbs if I had to keep to a jihad against fats. There's just such a nice accompaniment to what I'm eating, be it the carbs in bread (butter), milk fats in cheese and milk, or the animal fats in meats. Like I said, if I lose weight eating fats but cutting down quantities and carbs, feel fuller and certainly don't ever feel denied, I see no reason to cut the fats out.
> Not using butter on your bread isn't such a hardship when it's really good bread. Using butter on bread isn't such a big deal if you eat less bread.
> You use mustard and ketchup in your sandwiches but not mayonnaise. Or you use a nice minimal but tasty coating of mayonnaise to enjoy the taste of what you're making.
> You leave the cheese out of your chili but you add peppers -- yumm! Oh no! Cheese! run away!
> You make oven fries with Pam and Mrs. Dash > seasonings instead of deep frying. You can still have wine and beer and so [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You're not losing flavor unless you are using the wrong recipe book. So > what's the problem? Fats fill me up and taste good, much better than carbs. Meeting the Required Calories for the day is my first priority, then I worry about the macronutrient balance. IMV it's terribly naive to think that dietary fat turns into body fat. If anything, dietary fat seems to help body fat loss, since the body homoregulation functions aren't being distressed as severely.
Growing up I was brainwashed by the diet == denial marketing crap. Now I know better.
Heywood
232/183/182
Dally - 23 Aug 2004 18:08 GMT >>I do understand. And you keep acting like it worked. Losing it and >>keeping it off are two completely different things. We're teaching [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Well, I'd like to know, lol. That said, are lowfat diets always bad? Low fat diets have been found to play a role in reducing heart disease in men, according to the research Ornish did. I believe MacDougal found the same thing.
> Why are they suboptimal? In practice they turn out to be suboptimal for three reasons: they make it hard to feel satisfied on a meal without fat, so you keep eating. Fat lowers the glycemic index of things so you stay sated longer and so don't get the munchies as often. And the third reason is that you are less likely to store the food as fat because your body uses it to do metabolic things that just wouldn't get done if you didn't have the fat in your diet.
Low-fat diets also reduce your metabolism. If your goal is to burn more calories than you consumed then you have to look at both sides of that equation simultaneously. You have to eat less calories and/or burn more calories and hold both ideas in your head at the same time:
You can eat less calories to burn LESS calories (the typical low-fat way), but this leads to lowered lean muscle mass and a subsequent slowing down of the metabolism which leads to rebound weight gain (when you stop depriving yourself) as well as all the ailments associated with yo-yo dieting.
You can eat LESS calories to burn MORE calories (eating in such a way to increase your metabolism a bit and have energy so you can get some exercise). This is the golden mean most of us are aiming for: less calories, but not so much less that we feel deprived. This is how we do the long-term transformations. We do this by smart eating. It's tricky to work out because it typically involves making substantial changes in the way you eat (or you wouldn't have gotten fat to begin with.) There is a fair amount of experimentation and listening to your body in this stage.
And then when you're good at this, you can eat MORE calories to burn EVEN MORE calories: this usually involves weightlifting, that is, gaining some lean body mass. It probably also involves some metabolism repair work like doing high intensity interval training. This method takes some work to get it right, but the payoff is being able to eat like a normal person without fear of gaining 10 pounds over the week-end. :-)
I could give you a ton of books and NIH research and website after website, but I really highly recommend you start by reading everything in Mistress Krista's Eating section at http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html
Keep an open mind about the terms "low" and "high". Over and over again Krista keeps coming back to the idea that you get the macronutrients rather balanced. Low-fat means substantially less than 33%, high carb means substantially more than 33%. "Eat a balanced diet" means something different that I used to think it did: I used to think it meant eat a variety of foods from the food pyramid or from the four basic food groups or whatever. It doesn't really: it means eat a fairly balanced macronutrient load.
The best tool I can give you (besides knowledge) is www.fitday.com. Log your food in there for a while and see how the macronutrient breakdown shows up. It will be very illuminating, I assure you.
If you're anything like me you'll get a few lessons on portion size, on actual macronutrient breakout and how many calories you're really eating. I frequently find that I have to adjust the calories UPWARDS. Don't go below 8x your weight in calories (if you're a woman) or 10x your weight in calories (if you're a man) without a pretty darn good reason (and medical supervision.)
Dieting (as I use the term) is NOT about deprivation, it's about learning to eat. When you *get* it you'll discover that all the diet books converge and are really aiming you in the same direction: eat to fuel your body with good food.
Good luck!
Dally
PL - 23 Aug 2004 18:14 GMT > I could give you a ton of books and NIH research and website after > website, but I really highly recommend you start by reading everything [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > or from the four basic food groups or whatever. It doesn't really: > it means eat a fairly balanced macronutrient load. This is what I've been aiming for - a balance of carbs, protein and fat. I'm trying not to go too high or low on any of them.
> The best tool I can give you (besides knowledge) is www.fitday.com. > Log your food in there for a while and see how the macronutrient > breakdown shows up. It will be very illuminating, I assure you. I've been logging on Fitday for a few weeks now. It really did open my eyes to just how MUCH I was eating before.
Thanks for the good explanation, Dally.
 Signature PL (320/309/170) (First mini-goal: 299)
Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 18:36 GMT Some notes.
Some components of fat (called fatty acids) are essential, which means that our bodies cannot produce them. A diet that is deficient in them is harmful to our bodies.
It takes a relatively small amount of essential fatty acids to provide us with enough nutrients. Something around 10% of calories from fat would do, if you select your fat sources very carefully.
No particular carbohydrates are essential, which means that we can live without any particular carbohydrate (as long as we obtain adequate nutrition from other carbohydrates and nutrients).
Looking at cholesterol as a single number is not helpful as it is not very relevant to the possibility of heart disease. Cholesterol is composed of different fractions, such as HDL and LDL. Ratios of these fractions is what is more predictive of heart attack possibility.
Some fats are definitely harmful, in that they affect our cholesterol fractions in a way that raises our chances of heart attack. These are partially hydrogenated fats. Most fats used to prepare commercially prepared foods are hydrogenated, for economic reasons.
Many, but not all, fat people are also insulin resistant, which is a term that means that after eating carby meals, their blood glucose concentration goes up significantly. Those people normally do poorly on high carb diets and require great willpower to lose weight. That is because a rapid rise or fall in blood sugar concentration causes a sensation of hunger. Insulin resistance and obesity reinforce on another. Later on, high blood sugar begin to damage beta cells in people prone to such damage. Some IR individuals are prone to this damage and some are not. Those who are, become diabetics.
Besides that, high blood sugar and insulin resistance leads to bad blood lipid profile (high LDL, low HDL, very high tryglycerides). Also, high blood sugar leads to other complications, that may appear before an official diagnosis of diabetes.
Symptoms of IR are, excess weight, high blood pressure, low HDL, high trigs, heartburn, etc.
Fat people who are insulin resistant respond positively to increased fat in their diet, because they become less hungry, their blood sugars improve, etc.
Fats that are not hydrogenated, do not raise a person's heart risk if you look at how various fractions relate to one another and how these ratios change.
That fat is a cause of health problems and high mortality was a presumption, a hypothesis, that never received enough testing. Numerous current studies pretty much disprove this old theory. Unfortunately, it has become entrenched as many nutritionists, organizations etc built themselves around the diet heart hypothesis.
I recently posted about my personal experience with low carbing, in the thread titled "paleo diet -- my results". I lost weight by eating less, but after almost a year, felt hungry often and was using "willpower". As soon as I stopped eating grains (I was not eating sweeteners by that time) and potatoes, my hunger is gone and weight maintenance became automatic. This has been only going on for one month only, so my results are not quite conclusive for me.
A low fat diet is defined as a diet that supplies less than 30% of calories from fat.
It is improper to say in one sentence that a low fat diet is wrong and advise to get 25% of calories from fat.
I will be happy to supply references for every sentence in this post.
i
Dally - 23 Aug 2004 20:06 GMT > Some notes. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > us with enough nutrients. Something around 10% of calories from fat > would do, if you select your fat sources very carefully. True. But people who are in the "low-fat" mentality tend to avoid fats. Annabel, for example, would pass on coconut because it has saturated fats, but Udo Erasmus in his books "Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill" exempts plant-based saturated fats from the no-sat-fat rule. That means you get to eat avocado, too. I don't know how strong the research is into this but it sure makes sense to me that avocados and coconuts are good nutrition.
> No particular carbohydrates are essential, which means that we can > live without any particular carbohydrate (as long as we obtain > adequate nutrition from other carbohydrates and nutrients). That's a big "if" you shoved in there. You understand phytonutrients better than anyone else alive? And where is the fiber coming from - chicken breast?
> Many, but not all, fat people are also insulin resistant, which is a > term that means that after eating carby meals, their blood glucose [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > people prone to such damage. Some IR individuals are prone to this > damage and some are not. Those who are, become diabetics. And how do they BECOME IR if they aren't already?
> Fats that are not hydrogenated, do not raise a person's heart risk if > you look at how various fractions relate to one another and how these > ratios change. I see you've conquered all those causation vs. correlation problems with a wave of your hands. Good job.
> That fat is a cause of health problems and high mortality was a > presumption, a hypothesis, that never received enough testing. > Numerous current studies pretty much disprove this old theory. > Unfortunately, it has become entrenched as many nutritionists, > organizations etc built themselves around the diet heart hypothesis. Or the diet cancer hypothesis or the diet hip fracture hypothesis or whatever. Mortality and morbidity are complex. I don't believe you've just discovered the One True Answer.
> I recently posted about my personal experience with low carbing, in > the thread titled "paleo diet -- my results". It was cross-posted so I kill-filed it unread. The people in ASD don't play well with the people in ASDL-C. We use two separate threads if we want to talk with both groups. I figured you were trolling and just skipped the whole thing.
> I lost weight by eating > less, but after almost a year, felt hungry often and was using > "willpower". As soon as I stopped eating grains (I was not eating > sweeteners by that time) and potatoes, my hunger is gone and weight > maintenance became automatic. This has been only going on for one > month only, so my results are not quite conclusive for me. And yet you're saying the low-carb concept is only useful for people with already present insulin resistance.
> A low fat diet is defined as a diet that supplies less than 30% of > calories from fat. Says you. I consider low-fat to be anything substantially less than 33%, where in practice "substantially less" means within the range of about plus or minus 10%, because plus or minus 10% is what I see my macronutrients be off by when I'm living real life. I'm defining my terms based on functional requirements, you're defining your terms based on fiat. I win.
> It is improper to say in one sentence that a low fat diet is wrong and > advise to get 25% of calories from fat. Life is just awful that way. I hope you manage to get over the shock.
> I will be happy to supply references for every sentence in this post. No doubt. Won't make them right, though. You're on the cutting edge of what people know, Igor. You can hypothesize, you can make choices for yourself, but you can't positively state half the things you are asserting here.
Dally
Ignoramus8546 - 23 Aug 2004 21:08 GMT >> Some notes. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > into this but it sure makes sense to me that avocados and coconuts are > good nutrition. It makes sense to me, as well. Not knowing much about coconuts specifically, I would be greatly surprised if they were found unhealthy in a good controlled study.
>> No particular carbohydrates are essential, which means that we can >> live without any particular carbohydrate (as long as we obtain [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > better than anyone else alive? And where is the fiber coming from - > chicken breast? Are the phytonutrients that you are referring to, carbohydrates?Or are they vitamins, enzymes etc?
I never said that eating vegetables or fruits was not healthful (other than, say, high carb fruits for diabetics). I said that no particular carbohydrate -- no type of sugar or starch -- was essential to health. I did not say that vegetables were not essential.
So, fiber can come from vegetables, for example from tomatoes.
>> Many, but not all, fat people are also insulin resistant, which is a >> term that means that after eating carby meals, their blood glucose [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > And how do they BECOME IR if they aren't already? Insulin resistance is understood as a combination os several problems. For example, muscle may be slow tp take glucose, beta cells may be slow to produce insulin, the liver can be slow in stopping producing additional glucose. It is called a "triumvirate".
For a good introduction, you can look at
http://www.medscape.com/viewprogram/145_pnt
>> Fats that are not hydrogenated, do not raise a person's heart risk if >> you look at how various fractions relate to one another and how these >> ratios change. > > I see you've conquered all those causation vs. correlation problems with > a wave of your hands. Good job. No, I read quite a bit about this, both books and studies. If you are interested, I can supply you with a few references. Your sarcasm is understandable, but it is in fact an interesting subject where reading a little can produce good and useful results.
>> That fat is a cause of health problems and high mortality was a >> presumption, a hypothesis, that never received enough testing. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > whatever. Mortality and morbidity are complex. I don't believe you've > just discovered the One True Answer. I will be happy to discuss any particular relation if you are interested. I just don't know if you have any interest in this.
I am absolutely not an expert of any sort, but I am trying to learn and unserstand about that stuff, preferably from sources that are objective experiments.
>> I recently posted about my personal experience with low carbing, in >> the thread titled "paleo diet -- my results". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > want to talk with both groups. I figured you were trolling and just > skipped the whole thing. Except that there was zero animosity between the two groups in that thread. Many people read both newsgroups.
>> I lost weight by eating >> less, but after almost a year, felt hungry often and was using [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And yet you're saying the low-carb concept is only useful for people > with already present insulin resistance. I do not see any contradiction between my experiences with dieting and anything I said in my original post.
I think that I am insulin resistant, to some extent, based on some blood sugar tests that I did. It only makes sense, considering that my father is a diabetic at 57 years of age, and I was obese at 32.
>> A low fat diet is defined as a diet that supplies less than 30% of >> calories from fat. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > terms based on functional requirements, you're defining your terms based > on fiat. I win. I am defining this term according to the government definition.
http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/food/food-pyramid/main.htm
(talking in the context of the recommended low fat diet)
``The Dietary Guidelines recommend that Americans limit fat in their diets to 30 percent of calories.''
>> It is improper to say in one sentence that a low fat diet is wrong and >> advise to get 25% of calories from fat. > > Life is just awful that way. I hope you manage to get over the shock. Why do you want to insult me? What is it that it will accomplish for you?
>> I will be happy to supply references for every sentence in this post. > > No doubt. Won't make them right, though. You're on the cutting edge of > what people know, Igor. You can hypothesize, you can make choices for > yourself, but you can't positively state half the things you are > asserting here. Feel free to pick on partucular thing and discuss it. Maybe I will learn something also.
i
Dally - 23 Aug 2004 23:44 GMT >>>No particular carbohydrates are essential, which means that we can >>>live without any particular carbohydrate (as long as we obtain >>>adequate nutrition from other carbohydrates and nutrients).
> I never said that eating vegetables or fruits was not healthful (other > than, say, high carb fruits for diabetics). I said that no particular > carbohydrate -- no type of sugar or starch -- was essential to > health. I did not say that vegetables were not essential. Vegetables are mostly carbs. When referring to macronutrient ratios the vegetables you eat go in pretty much the exact same place as sugar in your macronutrient ratio. I think this view is faulty, and it is being addressed by considering the fiber and phytonutrient value of a carb rather than just it's calories. But to act like carbs are just grains or sugars doesn't fit with reality. Carbs are essential, in that fiber and nutrients are essential. As for your qeustion about phytonutrients, the best answer is that we don't know. Vitamin manufacturers aren't sure whether they've gotten the essence of what's good out of a vegetable when they distill it down into a vitamin. The general consensus is that there's more to be learned about the nutritional value of vegetables. Those "nutrients to be named later" are called phytonutrients. (My source for this is years of reading about the benefits of vegetables in Nutrition Action Healthletter.)
>>And how do they BECOME IR if they aren't already? > > Insulin resistance is understood as a combination os several > problems. For example, muscle may be slow tp take glucose, beta cells > may be slow to produce insulin, the liver can be slow in stopping > producing additional glucose. It is called a "triumvirate". Right, and eating too much and exercising too little is what brings it on. It is highly correlated with eating a high carb diet, in fact. I brought it on myself with my high-grain vegan diet.
>>>That fat is a cause of health problems and high mortality was a >>>presumption, a hypothesis, that never received enough testing. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I will be happy to discuss any particular relation if you are > interested. I just don't know if you have any interest in this. I didn't much care for your pronouncement that we were doomed because we had once been overweight and lost weight. I understand the study that suggested that, but I still wonder if they didn't just find people who lost weight through either unhealthy ways or because they were unhealthy. The number of people who have done what we've done are few and far between and not well studied. I believe I've been following the studies, but feel free to point me to links.
I'm particularly interested right now in the hormonal landscape for women who have ceased making estrogen in their fat cells due to high fat loss. Do you advise hormone replacement therapy, and if so, what hormones? (I'm not seriously asking you, I'm just pointing out that the questions I've got aren't studied.)
> I am absolutely not an expert of any sort, but I am trying to learn > and unserstand about that stuff, preferably from sources that are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Except that there was zero animosity between the two groups in that > thread. Many people read both newsgroups. I know. I say the same thing about misc.fitness.weights. Just know that the people who do NOT read both newsgroups often don't read cross-posted things. And the people who DO read both groups don't mind seeing the thread in two places, in my opinion.
>>>A low fat diet is defined as a diet that supplies less than 30% of >>>calories from fat. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > (talking in the context of the recommended low fat diet) They never reference "low fat" anywhere in that page. They recommend people limit their calories from fat to 30%, which is about what I suggest people do INSTEAD of low-fatting. People doing "low-fat" do NOT aim to get to the 30% level. Have you ever done low-fat? 10-20% level is normal. I try to eat more like 30% but I end up around 25% partly because I don't have much urge to eat fat after years of low-fatting.
> ``The Dietary Guidelines recommend that Americans limit fat in their > diets to 30 percent of calories.'' [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Why do you want to insult me? What is it that it will accomplish for you? "Low" is a word referring to relative levels. You don't get to assume everyone means the same thing by it. I'm telling you what I mean by it. You're still upset that I don't mean the same thing you mean and making up bogus definitions by fiat. I don't know what else to do with this besides laugh at you and let it go.
Besides, I'm in a bad mood.
Dally
JMA - 24 Aug 2004 02:26 GMT >> Insulin resistance is understood as a combination os several >> problems. For example, muscle may be slow tp take glucose, beta cells [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It is highly correlated with eating a high carb diet, in fact. I brought > it on myself with my high-grain vegan diet. And sometimes IR and for that matter T2 diabetes is the luck of the genetic draw. My 66 year old father in law was recently diagnosed with T2 during a routine physical - no symptoms or predisposition whatsoever. He was a little overweight in his 40's but lost weight, he's very active, and he eats very healthily: lots of veggies, fish and lean meats with very little junk food. Definitely not someone you'd guess would be T2.
>> I am defining this term according to the government definition. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > normal. I try to eat more like 30% but I end up around 25% partly because > I don't have much urge to eat fat after years of low-fatting. Well, ig never let facts get in the way of what he *knows* is right.
Anyway, did you notice that you had to work your way up slowly regarding the fat thing? One thing that people need to watch out for regarding fats is gallstones - especially women. When I had my gall bladder out many moons ago the doctor said the typical patient has the 4 F's: fat, female, fair, and forty. (three out of four worked for me) However, the type of fat really *does* make a difference. I could never tolerate high amounts of saturated fat, but fat from vegetables and seeds seems to be just fine. A recent study did bear that out in that women who get most of their fat from vegetable sources tend to have fewer incidences of gallstone disease.
>>>>It is improper to say in one sentence that a low fat diet is wrong and >>>>advise to get 25% of calories from fat. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > bogus definitions by fiat. I don't know what else to do with this besides > laugh at you and let it go. I wouldn't take it personally Dally, anyone who disagrees with him is *insulting* to him.
Jenn
Ignoramus8546 - 24 Aug 2004 02:34 GMT >>>>No particular carbohydrates are essential, which means that we can >>>>live without any particular carbohydrate (as long as we obtain [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the vegetables you eat go in pretty much the exact same place as > sugar in your macronutrient ratio. A typical vegetable, like a tomato, contains 3 grams sugar, 1 gram protein, and 1 gram fiber. The sugar that is in it, is absorbed much more slowly that would be table sugar.
That vegetables contain useful "phytonutrients" is something that I always agreed with. My point was that, unlike essential fatty acids, there are no essential carbohydrates. One could be happily living without fructose, or without sucrose, or without starch, etc, as long as the rest of food intake is reasonable.
> I think this view is faulty, and it is being addressed by > considering the fiber and phytonutrient value of a carb rather than [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > phytonutrients. (My source for this is years of reading about the > benefits of vegetables in Nutrition Action Healthletter.) You are completely missing the point. Carbs are not essential, "phytonutrients" are essential. A cup of spinach contains zero digestible carbohydrates, and is full of "phytonutrients".
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s020y.html
>>>And how do they BECOME IR if they aren't already? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > on. It is highly correlated with eating a high carb diet, in fact. I > brought it on myself with my high-grain vegan diet. I explained what IR is, and you explained part of the reason why it occurs. In fact, mitochondria of IR people is abnormal even before they become fat. (14960743)
>>>>That fat is a cause of health problems and high mortality was a >>>>presumption, a hypothesis, that never received enough testing. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I didn't much care for your pronouncement that we were doomed because we > had once been overweight and lost weight. Where did I make tat pronouncement?
> I understand the study that suggested that, but I still wonder if > they didn't just find people who lost weight through either > unhealthy ways or because they were unhealthy. The number of people > who have done what we've done are few and far between and not well > studied. I believe I've been following the studies, but feel free > to point me to links. Why, I think that you are right and people who lose weight in a conservative manner, and who are not screwed up too much, can hope to keep weight off. That's what the national weight loss registry suggests.
> I'm particularly interested right now in the hormonal landscape for > women who have ceased making estrogen in their fat cells due to high fat > loss. Do you advise hormone replacement therapy, and if so, what > hormones? (I'm not seriously asking you, I'm just pointing out that the > questions I've got aren't studied.) I have no idea at all.
Based on common sense, I would suspect that the answer will be that your estrogen reduction has beneficial effects with respect to reduction of chances of cancer (reproductive system). Think about the anorexic study that I posted a while ago. As far as I know, HRT has not had much success in postmenopausal women in reducing their overall mortality. Your bones probably already benefit from your weightlifting.
>> I am absolutely not an expert of any sort, but I am trying to learn >> and unserstand about that stuff, preferably from sources that are [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > cross-posted things. And the people who DO read both groups don't mind > seeing the thread in two places, in my opinion. Well, I prefer crossposting to multi-posting. Anyway, I actually regret that you missed by post, I would be curious as to what your opinion is, if you are in a not so foul mood.
>>>>It is improper to say in one sentence that a low fat diet is wrong and >>>>advise to get 25% of calories from fat. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Besides, I'm in a bad mood. Yes, I was wondering. I am also in a rather bad mood.
i
Heywood Mogroot - 24 Aug 2004 05:36 GMT > > A low fat diet is defined as a diet that supplies less than 30% of > > calories from fat. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > terms based on functional requirements, you're defining your terms based > on fiat. I win. With that I'd say low-fat is 16% +/- 10%, or a little over one oz. of fat on a 1800 kcal/day diet. Sounds about right...
Heywood Mogroot - 24 Aug 2004 05:20 GMT > Dieting (as I use the term) is NOT about deprivation, it's about > learning to eat. When you *get* it you'll discover that all the diet > books converge and are really aiming you in the same direction: eat to > fuel your body with good food. yup. What else need be said, really?
Eating is a multi-role (habitual, social, emotional, pleasurable) activity, but the bottom line is that the more you craft your daily food intake to meet your daily needs the better off you are.
The body needs & wants some level of fats, carbs, and protein. Usually we over-do the carbs.
Ray Audette - 26 Aug 2004 15:51 GMT > Low fat diets have been found to play a role in reducing heart disease > in men, according to the research Ornish did. I believe MacDougal found > the same thing. > > > Why are they suboptimal? The low-fat and exercise program you recommend has been tested in Japan for centuries. [ careful you could end up looking like Dean Ornish] see: Roach, Mary, "Advice from the World's Biggest Weight Experts: Their Gain Can Be Your Loss." Health (March/April 1993) 62-72. [Describes the traditional, low-fat diet of Japanese sumo wrestlers.]
For information about the Low-fat Hoax from "Science" see: http://nasw.org/mem-maint/awards/01Taubesarticle1.html
Ray Audette Author "NeaderThin" www.NeanderThin.com
Doug Freyburger - 23 Aug 2004 23:52 GMT > > Losing it and > > keeping it off are two completely different things. We're teaching > > people how to lose FAT and keep it off. I have found the keeping it off phase much harder. I stuggle to keep off half of my best loss. But that's still better than before I started. Day after day I have to make the good choices and the result isn't more loss. That feedback of the scale being lower than last month makes the losing phase so much easier.
> > Wouldn't you like to know more about how to partition your weight loss > > preferentially towards fat? Wouldn't you like to know more about how [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Well, I'd like to know, lol. That said, are lowfat diets always bad? They aren't bad for everyone. What's bad for everyone - The idea that one type of diet is better than all of the others therefore folks should not try various types to see what works for them.
Low fat diets are bad for a few people. Same as other types of plan, about the same failure rate too.
But there is a general objection to low fat plans: Once the medical folks started stressing low fat as the one and only right answer, an epidemic of obsesity occured. It's easy to blame this on low fat, but realistically the problem is really view one type of plan as the only right answer.
> Why are they suboptimal? Low protein plans lead to more lean loss compared to medium and high protein plans. To the extent that low fat plans are low protein, the objection applies. Are low fat plans actually low protein when folks follow the directions in the books? No. It's more a problem of what goes wrong when folks don't follow the directions. That problem, too, is shared by other plans.
But there's a wide belief that just plain cutting total fat intake works, so plenty of low fat folks don't get the book and there isn't all that much pressure to do so. Just plain cutting fat is perceived as safe for everyone.
With any plan it needs to be done carefully.
PL - 23 Aug 2004 23:58 GMT >> Well, I'd like to know, lol. That said, are lowfat diets always bad? > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > With any plan it needs to be done carefully. Thanks for the info, Doug. The more I learn and the better I eat the more I'm sure a strict lowfat plan isn't really for me. The balance thing seems to be working so far.
 Signature PL (320/306/170) (First mini-goal: 299)
Dally - 24 Aug 2004 01:27 GMT > Low protein plans lead to more lean loss compared to medium and high > protein plans. To the extent that low fat plans are low protein, > the objection applies. So you think that an optimal plan has moderate protein? Recipes with moderate protein tend to come bundled with fat, so I'd guess that you're in the 25-30% calories from fat if you're trying to keep protein levels up (in the what, 20-25% range?) Which leaves maybe 45 to 55% of your calories coming from carbs? Is *this* what you call a low-fat plan?
If so, it gets my stamp of approval. I'm just against ones that are wildly unbalanced. 75% carb, 15% fat and 10% protein, for example, is a great way to get fat an insulin resistant, even if you weren't before.
I'm serious: once we get past the terminology to the actual macronutrient ratios that work for fat loss I keep finding that we're all doing pretty much the same thing, plus or minus 10%.
Dally
Doug Freyburger - 24 Aug 2004 22:21 GMT > > Low protein plans lead to more lean loss compared to medium and high > > protein plans. To the extent that low fat plans are low protein, > > the objection applies. > > So you think that an optimal plan has moderate protein? I think optimal is very different from person to person, and I also think that most people have an entire range that is optimal. I think low protein is often problematic, medium protein is usually best, and high protein is rarely harmfull. Generally: yes with caveats.
> Recipes with > moderate protein tend to come bundled with fat, so I'd guess that you're > in the 25-30% calories from fat if you're trying to keep protein levels > up (in the what, 20-25% range?) Which leaves maybe 45 to 55% of your > calories coming from carbs? Is *this* what you call a low-fat plan? "The T-Factor Diet" was a popular moderate low fat plan that remained in print from the early 1980s through about 2000. It defined low fat as 60 or less for women and 80 or less for men. For me with a typical total calorie level of 1800, the arithmatic on that comes out (80*9)/1800 = 40%. So according to one popular moderate low fat plan to be moderately low fat I should target 40%. Interesting.
I did T-Factor for a while but I was always hungry. Knowing what I now know about my binge trigger foods, I could probably know keep my daily fat intake down to the 80 recommended in that old book and not be hungry.
> If so, it gets my stamp of approval. I'm just against ones that are > wildly unbalanced. 75% carb, 15% fat and 10% protein, for example, is a > great way to get fat an insulin resistant, even if you weren't before. I've been on Atkins for five years at this point. In Maintenance my CCLM is 100 grams of carb per day. The arithmatic on that is:
(100*4)/1800 = 22%.
My protein tends to run a bit over 100 and so a bit over 22%. Because it's well over what the book Protein Power says is my daily minimum, I call my protein percentage moderate. It's low in comparison to your center of 33%.
> I'm serious: once we get past the terminology to the actual > macronutrient ratios that work for fat loss I keep finding that we're > all doing pretty much the same thing, plus or minus 10%. Partial agreement, partial disagreement. What most do is experiment around your 33/33/33 center until they find a point that works for them, and the points ends up plus or minus 10%, 23% or 43% more often than in between. But the difference between 23% and 43% is large. I also suspect that lots of folks on maintenance do fine closer to the 33/33/33 middle.
Dally - 25 Aug 2004 19:56 GMT >>I'm serious: once we get past the terminology to the actual >>macronutrient ratios that work for fat loss I keep finding that we're >>all doing pretty much the same thing, plus or minus 10%. To put together what you said (and I snipped), you're around 22%/22%/56%, which is what I'd call a "high fat" diet. That certainly does diverge from what I was thinking we were all converging on.
> Partial agreement, partial disagreement. What most do is experiment > around your 33/33/33 center until they find a point that works for them, > and the points ends up plus or minus 10%, 23% or 43% more often than > in between. But the difference between 23% and 43% is large. Yes, but I don't think we have to hit some optimum number every day, and I think recipe choices influence the range on any given day, anyway. The problems come when we choose a wildly unbalanced goal.
> I also > suspect that lots of folks on maintenance do fine closer to the 33/33/33 > middle. Or a range around there.
Dally
Doug Freyburger - 26 Aug 2004 18:43 GMT > >>I'm serious: once we get past the terminology to the actual > >>macronutrient ratios that work for fat loss I keep finding that we're [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 22%/22%/56%, which is what I'd call a "high fat" diet. That certainly > does diverge from what I was thinking we were all converging on. That's why my agreement with you is partial and more a matter of bickering over the numbers, how they are reached, and what should be counted as balanced. I have no objection to the concept of balance, just how it's reched.
> > Partial agreement, partial disagreement. What most do is experiment > > around your 33/33/33 center until they find a point that works for them, > > and the points ends up plus or minus 10%, 23% or 43% more often than > > in between. But the difference between 23% and 43% is large. One - There are 3 classes and you listed 10%. I pointed out that what I eat is 11% different in two of the categories. So I am on the border of qualified as balanced in carbs and protein, both of which you think I keep just barely low enough to be balanced, and that gives fat twice the swing away from 33% so you think I am unbalanced in fat. Check. It's a 3-way equation not a 2-way one.
Two - Bickering over what should be considered balanced in fat, I pointed out that "The T-Factor Diet", which was popular for about 20 years as a moderate low fat plan, lists 40% of calories from fat as low for me. There is not good agreement on what is a best intake for fat, but your base of 33% does seem to be below the target given T-Factor input. In other words I agree with you that I am on a "high fat" diet (in percentages but not in total calories) when judged by your 33% criteria, but it looks like using 40% instead of 33% puts me a lot closer to balanced than your 33/33/33 criteria. Perhaps 30/30/40 would work better for more than 33/33/33? This level of discussing amounts ends up more of a debate about detailed trade-offs than a debate of underlying principles if I read it correctly.
> Yes, but I don't think we have to hit some optimum number every day, and > I think recipe choices influence the range on any given day, anyway. Especially for total calories, if someone eats way in excess one day and then eats less for the next several days and still ends up at the same average, it works. Calories are not an every single day issue to me. Give me that variation and I will average it out across a week. Just like scale readings.
> The problems come when we choose a wildly unbalanced goal. So to you my maintenance plan of 22/22/56 is unblanced. Is it wildly so in your opinion? When I first started on Atkins 5 years ago and I did those first two weeks at 20 grams or 4/22/72, I knew that was both wildly unbalanced and temporary.
Heywood Mogroot - 27 Aug 2004 02:16 GMT > So to you my maintenance plan of 22/22/56 is unblanced. Is it > wildly so in your opinion? When I first started on Atkins 5 years > ago and I did those first two weeks at 20 grams or 4/22/72, I knew > that was both wildly unbalanced and temporary. Your 22%-22%-56% (carb, pro, fat) plan is reasonably balanced by weight (100g-100g-112g on 1800kcal/day).
I find it interesting that my (admittedly high-carb, 60%-30%-10%) breakfast of choice (cheerios with 1/2 scoop of protein powder) basically takes half of your carb budget for the day.
One bowl has 52g carbs, 25g protein, and 8g fat.
My lunchtime almonds snack (8%-26%-64%) evens it out a bit heading into the late-afternoon snack, leaving a two-meal total of: 50%-28%-21%.
I often have half an apple with cheese in the late afternoon, then eat a normal dinner usually 30-30-30, so my daily diet ends up 50%-25%-25% each day.
I guess it would be safe to say that any diet at or under 50% for any one macronutrient (caloric %) is reasonably "balanced", whatever that really means.
Chris Braun - 24 Aug 2004 02:21 GMT >> I do understand. And you keep acting like it worked. Losing it and >> keeping it off are two completely different things. We're teaching [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Well, I'd like to know, lol. That said, are lowfat diets always bad? Why are >they suboptimal? I think it's important to understand what we mean by "lowfat". Dally, I think, eats around 30% of her calories from fat, as do I. That is lower in fat than the average American diet, and considerably lower than the very low-carb diets like Atkins and South Beach.
It's generally recognized now that some level of fat -- particularly of the good fat found in fish, nuts, olive oils, etc. -- is important to a healthy diet. These are important for mental function, skin and hair health, and are generally thought to be important for helping avoid various diseases. Dietary fat also helps with satiety -- avoiding hunger -- while dieting. Very low fat diets can compromise one's health and are also harder to stick to.
Compounding the "bad rap" that very low fat diets have gotten is the one-time plethora of lowfat food products that added lots of sugar and weird additives to compensate for the lack of fat. Of course, now the pendulum has swung the other way and there are lots of lowcarb foods that have lots of fat and weird additives to compensate for the lack of carbs :-).
Anyway, I'd recommend keeping fats at at least 25% of your calories, making this up of mostly good fats.
Chris 262/141/ (145-150)
PL - 24 Aug 2004 02:36 GMT > Anyway, I'd recommend keeping fats at at least 25% of your calories, > making this up of mostly good fats. > > Chris > 262/141/ (145-150) Thanks Chris. I'm trying to stay around 33%/33%/33%, give or take a few percentage points here and there. It seems to be working. I haven't felt hungry or deprived.
 Signature PL (320/306/170) (First mini-goal: 299)
JMA - 24 Aug 2004 02:46 GMT > I think it's important to understand what we mean by "lowfat". Dally, > I think, eats around 30% of her calories from fat, as do I. That is > lower in fat than the average American diet, and considerably lower > than the very low-carb diets like Atkins and South Beach. Just a minor correction though, South Beach isn't really low carb. Even in the first phase, the most restrictive, you can have skim or 1% milk or yogurt, and beans like garbanzos and black beans. In the second phase, fruit and whole grains are added in. So it's only low carb if you want it to be.
Jenn
Chris Braun - 24 Aug 2004 04:33 GMT >> I think it's important to understand what we mean by "lowfat". Dally, >> I think, eats around 30% of her calories from fat, as do I. That is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >fruit and whole grains are added in. So it's only low carb if you want it >to be. Thanks -- I hadn't realized you could eat whole grains on South Beach. The one person I know well who is on it doesn't seem to eat any grain products. I think it would be hard to really get a lot of carbs just from fruits and veggies. (I guess that "low carb", just like "low fat", is a relative term. But I'd consider anything under 100g or so a day of carbs as fairly low carb.)
Chris 262/141/ (145-150)
JMA - 25 Aug 2004 00:48 GMT >>> I think it's important to understand what we mean by "lowfat". Dally, >>> I think, eats around 30% of her calories from fat, as do I. That is [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Chris > 262/141/ (145-150) Then I'd imagine most of the time SBD phase 1 can be considered low carb unless you really like your veggies and yogurt (I do).
Jenn
Ub Iwerks - 23 Aug 2004 15:07 GMT > Yes, I know, now you mention how wonderfully your low-fat diet worked > for you. Lady, I've seen your picture. It didn't work. What part of alt.SUPPORT.diet do you not understand? Why not post a photo of yourself, and let us take a shot?
Dally - 23 Aug 2004 16:03 GMT >>Yes, I know, now you mention how wonderfully your low-fat diet worked >>for you. Lady, I've seen your picture. It didn't work. > > What part of alt.SUPPORT.diet do you not understand? Why not post a > photo of yourself, and let us take a shot? Google for it.
Dally
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