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How do you know if you're hungry?

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sej29@cornell.edu - 23 Feb 2005 03:31 GMT
I've been *very* hungry today, despite the fact that my calories have
been nearing 2000 all week (should be 300-400 or so above my calorie
needs? Maybe not...). Three hours after dinner, I ate a turkey burger
on one slice of sprouted-grain bread. An hour later, I ate a peanut
butter sandwich. Waited 20 minutes, still hungry. So I had 7-grain hot
cereal w/ protein and banana. Still hungry. Kashi Go-Lean with milk.
It's been a half hour and I'm still hungry! What the heck is going on?
I could eat cottage cheese or chocolate, both sound good, and I don't
even like cottage cheese that much-- is this how you guys gauge 'real'
hunger? Whether or not you would enjoy carrots sticks and cottage
cheese and other healthy, non-junk foods? When you have a day like
this, do you just go for it and eat as long as you're hungry?

Sara
Ruzinthra the Ruki - 23 Feb 2005 05:21 GMT
>Three hours after dinner, I ate a turkey burger
>on one slice of sprouted-grain bread. An hour later, I ate a peanut
>butter sandwich. Waited 20 minutes, still hungry. So I had 7-grain hot
>cereal w/ protein and banana. Still hungry. Kashi Go-Lean with milk.

are you on a high carb diet?  :)

try eating something with some avocado in it, or some flaxseed
oil.  both supply healthy fats, but as we all know, fat makes you
feel full.  maybe you could eat a salad of baby spinach,
strawberries, a few cashews, half a chicken breast (sliced),
grated carrots, and 2 tablespoons of Briannas Lively Lemon
Tarragon dressing (which, BTW, has 35 calories per 2 tablespoons,
and no fat calories).
http://www.briannassaladdressing.com/Products.htm

i eat such a salad at least five times a week.  :)

david
sej29@cornell.edu - 23 Feb 2005 14:11 GMT
> >Three hours after dinner, I ate a turkey burger
> >on one slice of sprouted-grain bread. An hour later, I ate a peanut
> >butter sandwich. Waited 20 minutes, still hungry. So I had 7-grain hot
> >cereal w/ protein and banana. Still hungry. Kashi Go-Lean with milk.
>
> are you on a high carb diet?  :)

I'm on a diet to gain a few lbs and so yeah, I'm on a high 'everything'
diet-- whole grains, protein, and moderate fat. Not that I would ever
cut carbs out of my diet; that's too extreme for me, I'm not going to
deny myself of my favorite whole-grain foods.

> try eating something with some avocado in it, or some flaxseed
> oil.  both supply healthy fats, but as we all know, fat makes you
> feel full.

I know, that's why I ate peanut butter! The cereal was a "whim" thing,
easy to prepare and good-tasting, but it does have 13g protein and 11g
fiber per serving, plus the protein in the milk. It usually satiates
me.

maybe you could eat a salad of baby spinach,
> strawberries, a few cashews, half a chicken breast (sliced),
> grated carrots, and 2 tablespoons of Briannas Lively Lemon
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> i eat such a salad at least five times a week.  :)

That sounds good...is there lots of sugar in the dressing? I make
salads sometimes with chicken, dried fruit, sliced almonds and feta,
with a little vinegar or olive oil. I also go to Smoothie-Hut sometimes
and get a bunch of other stuff on it for like 5 bucks, like sprouts,
mandarin oranges and apples and whatever I don't have in the house, and
then add my own chicken.
Ruzinthra the Ruki - 23 Feb 2005 21:27 GMT
<snip>
>maybe you could eat a salad of baby spinach,
>> strawberries, a few cashews, half a chicken breast (sliced),
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>That sounds good...is there lots of sugar in the dressing?

probably not.  it does contain honey, however.

david
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Renegade5 - 26 Feb 2005 14:46 GMT
>> >Three hours after dinner, I ate a turkey burger
>> >on one slice of sprouted-grain bread. An hour later, I ate a peanut
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>cut carbs out of my diet; that's too extreme for me, I'm not going to
>deny myself of my favorite whole-grain foods.

Sounds like tapeworm  :-)
Renegade5 - 26 Feb 2005 14:46 GMT
>>Three hours after dinner, I ate a turkey burger
>>on one slice of sprouted-grain bread. An hour later, I ate a peanut
>>butter sandwich. Waited 20 minutes, still hungry. So I had 7-grain hot
>>cereal w/ protein and banana. Still hungry. Kashi Go-Lean with milk.

I define 'hunger' as a unique type of discomfort in my stomach (the
proverbial 'stomach pang').

I do not consider a craving "mmm... a piece of cake would be *really*
good right now... or maybe some back bacon... yum!"   <g> as hunger.

I think fasting for a day really helps some people determine hunger.
Ignoramus15841 - 23 Feb 2005 13:48 GMT
> I've been *very* hungry today, despite the fact that my calories have
> been nearing 2000 all week (should be 300-400 or so above my calorie
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> cheese and other healthy, non-junk foods? When you have a day like
> this, do you just go for it and eat as long as you're hungry?

I had the same problem as you, eating at maintenance level, no
tlosing, and yet being hungry. I doubt that there is a good
explanation of that, besides lamely saying that "my body wanted to be
fatter".

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Carol Frilegh - 23 Feb 2005 14:08 GMT
> > I've been *very* hungry today, despite the fact that my calories have
> > been nearing 2000 all week

I know I'm hungry when my stomach thinks my throat has been cut!

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sej29@cornell.edu - 23 Feb 2005 14:12 GMT
> I had the same problem as you, eating at maintenance level, no
> tlosing, and yet being hungry. I doubt that there is a good
> explanation of that, besides lamely saying that "my body wanted to be
> fatter".

It was just yesterday, a once in awhile thing, not everyday but still
annoying. I took my pill last night, though, and noticed that my TOM is
due to arrive in less than a week, so that might explain the hunger.
Ed Bono - 23 Feb 2005 14:24 GMT
> I had the same problem as you, eating at maintenance level, no
> tlosing, and yet being hungry. I doubt that there is a good
> explanation of that, besides lamely saying that "my body wanted to be
> fatter".

But it's not lame. Your body does want you to be fatter. It will do what
it takes to get your weight back to where it was.
Ignoramus21810 - 23 Feb 2005 14:31 GMT
>> I had the same problem as you, eating at maintenance level, not
>> losing, and yet being hungry. I doubt that there is a good
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But it's not lame. Your body does want you to be fatter. It will do what
> it takes to get your weight back to where it was.

Well, what I am wondering about is, jyst what exactly is happening
that makes us hungry. How does "the body" know what weight it should
be, and how does it signal that, how come it decides to produce the
hunger hormones etc.

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Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 23 Feb 2005 15:13 GMT
> Well, what I am wondering about is, jyst what exactly is happening
> that makes us hungry. How does "the body" know what weight it should
> be, and how does it signal that, how come it decides to produce the
> hunger hormones etc.

Mary responds: Gee, isn't that what we all wonder? If I knew, I'd be
making zillions helping people reset their "set points" after weight
loss, so they could listen to their appetites and stay stable at their
new lower weights. I'd not only be thin permanently, I'd be rich, rich,
rich. My appetite wants me to weigh 200 lb plus, so I know it tells me
filthy lies about what I should eat.

There has been lots of research done, and it gets ever more complex the
more they study it between various hormones, genes, the hypothalamus,
metabolism etc. etc.
Here is a really interesting interview with a researcher covering a lot
of ground
http://home.comcast.net/~bkrentzman/obesity/liebel.html
plus here is a blurb on some new research that mentions yet another
hormone made by the stomach that makes you hungry
http://www.psu.edu/ur/2004/ghrelin.html

And in the mean time, all I can do is try and learn from what the
people in the weight registry had in common....eating breakfast daily,
frequent weigh ins, lots of exercise, low fat diet, and interestingly,
they report lower than average intakes of 1500 calories a day. The
researchers didn't believe them on that point - they think its
underreporting. However, I know if I eat more than 1500 a day, I gain
weight, so I'm inclined to believe some of us have thriftier
metabolisms than others.

Mary G
195/135-145/135...and desperately trying to HOLD!!
Ignoramus21810 - 23 Feb 2005 15:29 GMT
>> Well, what I am wondering about is, jyst what exactly is happening
>> that makes us hungry. How does "the body" know what weight it should
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> of ground
> http://home.comcast.net/~bkrentzman/obesity/liebel.html

Thanks for the link, I am reading that article right now.

> plus here is a blurb on some new research that mentions yet another
> hormone made by the stomach that makes you hungry
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> frequent weigh ins, lots of exercise, low fat diet, and interestingly,
> they report lower than average intakes of 1500 calories a day.

These successful dieters seem to be, first, seriously focused on
weight maintenance, and second, they may also have an element of luck
in the sense that they may be less screwed up biologically (however
fuzzy it sounds).

> The researchers didn't believe them on that point - they think its
> underreporting. However, I know if I eat more than 1500 a day, I
> gain weight, so I'm inclined to believe some of us have thriftier
> metabolisms than others.

I am not sure what is the validity of the average calorie intake. It is
like average body temperature in a hospital. If I ate 1500 calories
per day, I would look like those anorexics on the photo page that I
posted recently. 2400-2500 is my maintenance level.

> Mary G
> 195/135-145/135...and desperately trying to HOLD!!

Good luck, I think that in yourself, you have everything you need to
keep weight off.

i

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Polar Light - 23 Feb 2005 16:53 GMT
>> The researchers didn't believe them on that point - they think its
>> underreporting. However, I know if I eat more than 1500 a day, I
>> gain weight, so I'm inclined to believe some of us have thriftier
>> metabolisms than others.
>
> I am not sure what is the validity of the average calorie intake.

The average is like any other average, if you average 2500 & 1500 you get
2000, which is often quoted as the 'average' caloric requirement. I have a
page here that shows quite well how to calculate individual requirements:
http://www.polar-light.com/diet/requirements.gif

>It is like average body temperature in a hospital. If I ate 1500 calories
> per day, I would look like those anorexics on the photo page that I
> posted recently.

I once read that, if you were to stick to 1000 cals/day forever, you'd end
up weighing 91 lbs. It would appear that it takes 1000 to maintain that
weight. Those girls were all under 90 lbs, I suppose they spend days without
eating or average around 400-500 cals/day.

2400-2500 is my maintenance level.

Another significant point is that some people seem to have 'stronger'
digestive systems. I can eat a lot, however, I don't think I could ever be
300lbs even if I deliberately wanted to (say, if there was a million dollar
reward :-)). The reason being that, after several days of eating too much,
especially very rich, fatty foods, I can get really ill, like not being able
to eat anything for 2 or 3 days, vomiting, etc., all as a result of
overcharging the system. I can't see how those super-sized people who claim
to eat a gallon of ice cream & 3 large pizzas in one night can mange it
without being sick :-(
Ignoramus6609 - 25 Feb 2005 14:37 GMT
> Another significant point is that some people seem to have 'stronger'
> digestive systems. I can eat a lot, however, I don't think I could ever be
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to eat a gallon of ice cream & 3 large pizzas in one night can mange it
> without being sick :-(

That's very good for you. Someone did an experiment on healthy, slim
prison inmates, by asking them to eat as much as they could and to try
to gain weight.

`` Sims was interested in whether the metabolic differences observed
between fat and thin people were the result or the cause of their body
type. Put simply, he wanted to know whether people are born fat or
made fat. He decided that the best way to sort this out was to
convince a group of slim volunteers to eat themselves fat and to
observe what happened to them when they reduced to their original
weight.

Sims was fortunate to have nearby a ready source of experimental
subjects: the inmates at Vermont state prison, sufficient numbers of
whom were willing to gorge themselves for science. At first the
prisoners proved enthusiastic trenchermen, as much as doubling their
usual daily intake of food. But as they fattened, they became
increasingly reluctant to overeat. Most found it extremely difficult
to gain weight, and eventually some started to drop out of the
study. Only 20 made it through the requisite 200 days, achieving an
average weight gain of 20-25lbs. Relieved of the high-calorie,
low-exercise regimen, all but two of the inmates quickly dropped the
newly acquired ballast. The pair of inmates who found it most
difficult to lose weight were those who had experienced the least
difficulty gaining weight in the first place. It was later discovered
that both these men had a family history of obesity.

From this experiment Sims concluded that the body was remarkably well
equipped to balance energy intake and output, and to reach an energy
equilibrium, or "homeostasis", at which it felt naturally
comfortable. What was particularly interesting was that body weight
seemed somehow fixed, and was in most subjects resistant to change
over the short term. The prisoners with obesity in their backgrounds
were, it seemed, genetically inclined to reach homeostasis at a higher
weight than were others; the high-calorie diet only helped manifest
their genetic proclivity.''

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Top Spin - 25 Feb 2005 16:10 GMT
>> Another significant point is that some people seem to have 'stronger'
>> digestive systems. I can eat a lot, however, I don't think I could ever be
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>weight than were others; the high-calorie diet only helped manifest
>their genetic proclivity.''

It seems to me that there are several significant mechanisms at work
here:

1. Each body has a "set point" (or more accurately, a "set range") for
weight or fat or something. If it is over that set point, it will
suppress hunger. If it is under, it will activate hunger.

2. If a person consumes more than it required to maintain that set
point, the body will react in various ways to maintain it. It will
first suppress hunger. It will also eliminate (rather than store) more
of what it consumed. It may even cause overeating to be unpleasant.

3. The set point can and is altered over time. I am not sure if
consistent over-eating alone can affect it, but age does for sure. I
would imagine that (long term) exercise would, as well.

I would like to see a study where 100 (or 1,000) random people were
"locked up" so that every ounce of intake (and output) could be
measured and monitored. It would need to continue for months or maybe
years and the people would need to be forced to consume everything gi
ven to them. It would be messy and I certainly would not want to be
part of the study. ;-)

--
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(11/09/04)
Ignoramus6609 - 25 Feb 2005 16:21 GMT
>>> Another significant point is that some people seem to have 'stronger'
>>> digestive systems. I can eat a lot, however, I don't think I could ever be
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> weight or fat or something. If it is over that set point, it will
> suppress hunger. If it is under, it will activate hunger.

I agree, but must add my opinion that this set point is also
influenced by diet and perhaps lifestyle or whatnot.

> 2. If a person consumes more than it required to maintain that set
> point, the body will react in various ways to maintain it. It will
> first suppress hunger. It will also eliminate (rather than store) more
> of what it consumed. It may even cause overeating to be unpleasant.

Overeating, now (on my high fat diet) is extremely unpleasant for me.

> 3. The set point can and is altered over time. I am not sure if
> consistent over-eating alone can affect it, but age does for sure. I
> would imagine that (long term) exercise would, as well.

I agree.

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Ed Bono - 25 Feb 2005 16:32 GMT
> 1. Each body has a "set point" (or more accurately, a "set range") for
> weight or fat or something. If it is over that set point, it will
> suppress hunger. If it is under, it will activate hunger.

I don't think it will suppress hunger. Eating is mediated to
a large extent by external stimuli. There really is no
mechanism to stop you from gaining weight. It's an
asymmetrical system. The body is wants you to eat and
gain weight. It doesn't care of you lose weight. Historically
that was never a problem.
Top Spin - 25 Feb 2005 20:54 GMT
>> 1. Each body has a "set point" (or more accurately, a "set range") for
>> weight or fat or something. If it is over that set point, it will
>> suppress hunger. If it is under, it will activate hunger.
>
>I don't think it will suppress hunger. Eating is mediated to
>a large extent by external stimuli.

Really? Which external stimuli?

>There really is no
>mechanism to stop you from gaining weight.

Huh?

>It's an
>asymmetrical system.

Double huh?

>The body is wants you to eat and
>gain weight. It doesn't care of you lose weight. Historically
>that was never a problem.

Do you have any data to support this?

--
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(11/09/04)
Ed Bono - 25 Feb 2005 21:59 GMT
> Do you have any data to support this?

Huh?
Top Spin - 26 Feb 2005 14:08 GMT
>> Do you have any data to support this?
>
>Huh?

That's what I thought. You don't. Thanks for clarifying.

--
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(11/09/04)
Ed Bono - 26 Feb 2005 15:56 GMT
>>>Do you have any data to support this?
>>
>>Huh?
>
> That's what I thought. You don't. Thanks for clarifying.

Wow, that's more thought than you put into your previous post,
which consisted of a bunch of huhs. I don't see a reason
to put forth any effort when that's the level of dialogue
you prefer.
Ruzinthra the Ruki - 27 Feb 2005 03:49 GMT
>I don't see a reason
>to put forth any effort
Chris - 23 Feb 2005 18:13 GMT
> I am not sure what is the validity of the average calorie intake. It is
> like average body temperature in a hospital. If I ate 1500 calories
> per day, I would look like those anorexics on the photo page that I
> posted recently. 2400-2500 is my maintenance level.

Do you have any idea what the male/female ratio is of the people in
this registry?  If it's largely female, an average of 1500 may not be
far off, particularly if lots of them are middle-aged or older.  I
agree that would be an unusually low maintenance level for most men.

Chris
Dr_Dickie - 23 Feb 2005 17:25 GMT
> >> I had the same problem as you, eating at maintenance level, not
> >> losing, and yet being hungry. I doubt that there is a good
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> be, and how does it signal that, how come it decides to produce the
> hunger hormones etc.

Try a google (or better pubmed) search for leptin. One of several culprits.

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Carol Frilegh - 23 Feb 2005 20:12 GMT
> > I had the same problem as you, eating at maintenance level, no
> > tlosing, and yet being hungry. I doubt that there is a good
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But it's not lame. Your body does want you to be fatter. It will do what
> it takes to get your weight back to where it was.

After five years and losing 86 pounds my body would still like my set
point to be 219!

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Andy - 23 Feb 2005 20:10 GMT
Sara,

I know I'm hungry if by some reason all I can see is blue sky and turkey
vultures circling overhead.

;)

Andy

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Mary M/Ohio - 24 Feb 2005 22:11 GMT
> I've been *very* hungry today, despite the fact that my calories have
> been nearing 2000 all week (should be 300-400 or so above my calorie
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> cheese and other healthy, non-junk foods? When you have a day like
> this, do you just go for it and eat as long as you're hungry?

The way I can tell "mind hunger" from true hunger is that true hunger has
the growling stomach, slight light-headedness and other physical symptoms
that signal a need to eat. For me, "mind hunger" is characterized by a
restless feeling, a bored feeling, a feeling of wanting to crunch or munch
on something, a vague malaise, a need for distraction. I need to pay
attention to where my thoughts are at in order to differentiate between true
hunger and mind hunger. And I have to pay attention to how I am combining
foods in order not to start the insulin merry-go-round where no matter how
much I eat, I am not satisfied. It doesn't sound like you were affected by
something like that, since you were careful to include protein in your
selections. How did it go for you the next day? Were you as hungry?

Mary

Mary
SnugBear - 24 Feb 2005 23:56 GMT
> <sej29@cornell.edu> wrote
>> I've been *very* hungry today, despite the fact that my calories have
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> has the growling stomach, slight light-headedness and other physical
> symptoms that signal a need to eat. <snip>

The summer I was losing weight I unintentionally took a longer walk than
I had planned on a Sunday morning before breakfast.  When I got back, my
stomach was growling, I felt crazy and as I prepared my food, I realized
my husband was talking to me.  I absolutely could not pay attention to
him until I ate. I never made that mistake again - it wasn't fun.  
Generally, I enjoy being just a *little* hungry.

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Dr_Dickie - 25 Feb 2005 13:17 GMT
> Snip> > The way I can tell "mind hunger" from true hunger is that true
hunger
> > has the growling stomach, slight light-headedness and other physical
> > symptoms that signal a need to eat. <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> him until I ate. I never made that mistake again - it wasn't fun.
> Generally, I enjoy being just a *little* hungry.

One thing I have noticed (at least about me), is that my stomach will
usually only growl at the time that it thinks I am supposed to be eating. In
other words, if I eat every day at 12 noon, then one day I wait until
1:00PM, my stomach growls at 12:15 PM.  If change my time to eat until 1:00
PM, it will not growl until 1:15PM and so on. Of course, I have to be hungry
as well, but once I notice this, I realized that a some of my eating was
simply habit, not need!  Kinda gave me some power over the drive that makes
me eat too much--as I've said, a lifestyle change requires education--about
food and about yourself.
If you eat at set times (yeah, I am all about routine), try passing a meal
for an hour, and see if your hunger doesn't diminish.
Of course, skipping meals is not a great way to diet, I simply found it an
interesting phenomena (yeah, us scientific types are weird that way).

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Ignoramus6609 - 25 Feb 2005 13:49 GMT
> The summer I was losing weight I unintentionally took a longer walk than
> I had planned on a Sunday morning before breakfast.  When I got back, my
> stomach was growling, I felt crazy and as I prepared my food, I realized
> my husband was talking to me.  I absolutely could not pay attention to
> him until I ate. I never made that mistake again - it wasn't fun.  

I used to have a lot of such days...

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Matthew Venhaus - 25 Feb 2005 14:05 GMT
> > The summer I was losing weight I unintentionally took a longer walk than
> > I had planned on a Sunday morning before breakfast.  When I got back, my
> > stomach was growling, I felt crazy and as I prepared my food, I realized
> > my husband was talking to me.  I absolutely could not pay attention to
> > him until I ate. I never made that mistake again - it wasn't fun.

Who needs Atkins; it's instant induction.

> I used to have a lot of such days...

And you still don't take carbs prior to exercise?
--
Matthew
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Ignoramus6609 - 25 Feb 2005 14:21 GMT
>> > The summer I was losing weight I unintentionally took a longer walk than
>> > I had planned on a Sunday morning before breakfast.  When I got back, my
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> And you still don't take carbs prior to exercise?

I feel no need for taking carbs prior to exercise, at this point,
yes. For the record, I feel no need to take carbs after exercise
either.

Those hungry days were before low carb.

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SnugBear - 26 Feb 2005 01:51 GMT
>> The summer I was losing weight I unintentionally took a longer walk
>> than I had planned on a Sunday morning before breakfast.  When I got
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I used to have a lot of such days...

You used to fast on Thursdays.

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Ignoramus6609 - 26 Feb 2005 04:36 GMT
>>> The summer I was losing weight I unintentionally took a longer walk
>>> than I had planned on a Sunday morning before breakfast.  When I got
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You used to fast on Thursdays.

Thursdays, yes, those were hungry days, as well as other days in the
week. It was not intolerable, but it was irritating.

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