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Maggie - 10 Mar 2005 01:46 GMT
Hi;  I am new here, and i wasnt sure where to post my question.  I have
been reading quite abit here and i like what i read... Well i am not on any
program to loose weight but i am trying on my own... I have one problem, im
not sure where to start... this is what i got... I am about 5ft, 176pounds,
two years ago i quit smoking, but weight is what got me. I am still a non
smoker, i have gain 20 pounds or more in the last two years... i am not an
active person, i try, i really do, but my knee's are killing me , often
swelling up.  my ankels are not in good shape, never was, but with extra
weight its been difficult.. i tore leigaments few years back on both
ankles, ( not at the same time, different times) due to my pregnancy.
anyways, should i count calories? or points, maybe low carb or high carb??
I am not a junk food eater, i love fruits & veggies, i dont eat at nites,
and my friends i eat healthy but they cant understand why i gain. i dont
eat fatty foods, like fast food stuff.. if i do, its very rare and it has
to be somewheres , where i have no choice... i lovee fish, i can have that
every day... (but i dont, once a week , fridays ) i use to walk before, but
my knees would lock, wasnt so bad then, but with the extra pounds its
harder,  thanks
Ignoramus12418 - 10 Mar 2005 03:51 GMT
You do not have to be in any kind of organized program to lose
weight. Most persons who lost weight and kept it off did their own
program. (source, _Keeping it Off_). Counting calories is a foolproof
approach to dieting, although you may get by with portion control,
which would accomplish the same thing. (for example, eat 3 meals only
from a small plate to be filled with anything you want, once per meal).

If exercise is too painful at your weight, you can as well skip
exercise or do very little of what you can.

Do not be intimidated, a lot of people started off in just as bad
position as you are in and they are doing great. What's important is
being consistent.

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Doug Freyburger - 10 Mar 2005 18:43 GMT
> I have been reading quite abit here and i like what
> i read... Well i am not on any program to loose weight
> but i am trying on my own... I have one problem, im
> not sure where to start...

On the coin collecting group the standard advice is
"Buy the book before you buy the coin".  The general
sentiment works just fine here.

Popular weight loss plans are popular because they
work.  They work because they are carefully designed
and tested.  As much as a decade of work goes into
each of them.  Consider what your chances are if you
make up your own plan as you go compared to taking
advantage of a decade of work by someone else.

> anyways, should i count calories? or points, maybe
> low carb or high carb??

Those are the most popular options: Low calorie, low
fat and low carb.  There are other types of plans
out there that use principles that aren't as easy
to come up with on your own.

> I am not a junk food eater, i love fruits & veggies

So far you've described just about every plan you'll
find.

> and my friends i eat healthy but they cant
> understand why i gain.

There are always reasons.  The human body does not
behave in obvious ways.

So take a step back and see if what you're already
doing fits some class of plans.  If you're currently
high-carb/low-fat then that isn't working so go for
low-carb/high-fat.  Or vice versa depending on what you
already eat.

> i lovee fish, i can have that every day...

Another point common to nearly every plan available.

Read some plans.  Read a couple of low fat ones, a
couple of low carb ones, a couple of low calorie ones.
They all work and everyone is different so none of them
work for everyone.  Once you have learned, then pick
using that education, and using the fact that what you
currently eat isn't working.
Meghan Noecker - 11 Mar 2005 01:20 GMT
>Popular weight loss plans are popular because they
>work.

I have to disagree with this. Most plans work for the shorterm, but
they are just "diets" to most people, and will not work in the long
run because people think it is a short term thing.

Jenny Craig and Weight Watchers are very popular, but what percentage
actually keeps the weight off long term? They give the impression of
working since people lose while they are on it, but if the person
hasn't changed their whole way of life and eating, then they will be
back, and that is what these companies count on - return customers.

To assume that something works because it is popular is not a good
idea. Diet pills are popular and do give results. But that isn't a
good plan and certainly not for long term results.

There are many good plans that work, but only of it is a long term
change in the way of eating and exercising. Basically - eat less and
move more. How you do that is it up to you. No need for a fancy
"diet".

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Carol Frilegh - 11 Mar 2005 09:46 GMT
> >Popular weight loss plans are popular because they
> >work.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Jenny Craig and Weight Watchers are very popular, but what percentage
> actually keeps the weight off long term?

The rate of recidivism in almost all types of weight loss is 98%. This
does not have to apply but be advised the 2% who are successful usually
have to work very hard at keeping weight off.

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Meghan Noecker - 11 Mar 2005 10:14 GMT
>> Jenny Craig and Weight Watchers are very popular, but what percentage
>> actually keeps the weight off long term?
>
>The rate of recidivism in almost all types of weight loss is 98%. This
>does not have to apply but be advised the 2% who are successful usually
>have to work very hard at keeping weight off.

I knew it was pretty bad, but I couldn't remember the numbers. That is
why I think of it more as a scam. Technically it works, but they
usually aren't teaching a life long change. So, when you get off and
gain weight, then you can go back and use their services again. Most
people still think of a diet as a temporary thing. You go on the diet,
lose the weight, and then go back to normal. They don't understand
that maintenance is very similar to the "diet". And it is life long.

So, the actual plan makes less of a difference than the attitude and
determination to stick with it as a way of life.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
SnugBear - 12 Mar 2005 02:34 GMT
>  Most
> people still think of a diet as a temporary thing. You go on the diet,
> lose the weight, and then go back to normal. They don't understand
> that maintenance is very similar to the "diet". And it is life long.

It was a really wonderful revelation to me to understand that it's not
*normal* to eat huge quantities of calorie and fat laden food.

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Meghan Noecker - 12 Mar 2005 03:25 GMT
>>  Most
>> people still think of a diet as a temporary thing. You go on the diet,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It was a really wonderful revelation to me to understand that it's not
>*normal* to eat huge quantities of calorie and fat laden food.

Yes, I still have a hard time with portions. I look at what the
portion should be, and I think that is tiny. I know that some things
like candy bars and pop use smaller serving sizes so that the calorie
information look nicer. So, it is hard for me to truly believe that
meat portions really should be that small. I'd rather skip the side
stuff and just eat more meat.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Chris Braun - 12 Mar 2005 04:15 GMT
>>>  Most
>>> people still think of a diet as a temporary thing. You go on the diet,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>meat portions really should be that small. I'd rather skip the side
>stuff and just eat more meat.

I'm with you there, Meghan.  This isn't a bad approach, except maybe
if the meat you usually eat is high in saturated fat -- like if you
eat steak every day.  You can still add in plenty of veggies for very
few more calories.  The stuff I skip or go very light on is the
starchy stuff -- pretty high in calories and not nearly as good as
meat :-).  

A fellow carnivore --

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
Polar Light - 12 Mar 2005 08:47 GMT
>>Yes, I still have a hard time with portions. I look at what the
>>portion should be, and I think that is tiny. I know that some things
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> starchy stuff -- pretty high in calories and not nearly as good as
> meat :-).

Meat isn't a problem for me, I'm not vegetarian but I'm not crazy about
meat, I eat more chicken & turkey than red meat & mostly as a source of
protein. To me, it is the 'starchy' stuff where I find the 'right' portions
impossibly small, like 250g of fresh pasta or ravioli being TWO servings.
Rice, noodles, mashed potatoes, beans, I could eat triple servings of this
stuff. I do my best to avoid it (or have small amounts) whilst losing weight
'coz it piles on the calories though.
Chris Braun - 12 Mar 2005 04:13 GMT
>>  Most
>> people still think of a diet as a temporary thing. You go on the diet,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It was a really wonderful revelation to me to understand that it's not
>*normal* to eat huge quantities of calorie and fat laden food.

Amazing, isn't it :-).  Restaurants brainwash people into thinking
otherwise.  One experience that amused me was when I went to breakfast
at IHOP (pancake house chain) with Tom, my trainer.  I ordered the
breakfast I always got at the diner we usually went to -- 2 fried
eggs, English muffin, grapefruit juice.  I had to order this piece by
piece, as all the IHOP menu offerings are big "breakfast specials"
with lots more stuff.  The young waitress asked me, with an expression
somewhere between concern and incredulity, "Is that all???  Don't you
want any meat?  Any pancakes or French toast?"  I assured her that
that was a perfectly adequate breakfast for me -- actually more than I
generally eat.  I guess she had come to think their 1000 calorie
breakfasts are actually normal eating.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
Ignoramus2923 - 12 Mar 2005 05:09 GMT
> generally eat.  I guess she had come to think their 1000 calorie
> breakfasts are actually normal eating.

I must say that I eat 1,000 calorie breakfasts on perhaps half of my
days. :) These would not involve pancakes though. You made a good
point, that restaurants promote excessive quantity of relatively cheap
food as "value" to the customer, even though it really is not "value",
from the standpoint of economics and consumer utility.

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Nunya B. - 12 Mar 2005 18:48 GMT
>>>  Most
>>> people still think of a diet as a temporary thing. You go on the diet,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> generally eat.  I guess she had come to think their 1000 calorie
> breakfasts are actually normal eating.

I get the same reaction from waitstaff when ordering my typical breakfast
out - one egg, canadian bacon, no toast.  There has been this commercial for
Denny's on lately that advertises some behemouth breakfast with 3 kinds of
meats and a lot of other crap for only 4.99!  It makes me nauseous to look
at it.

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Meghan Noecker - 13 Mar 2005 09:40 GMT
>I get the same reaction from waitstaff when ordering my typical breakfast
>out - one egg, canadian bacon, no toast.  There has been this commercial for
>Denny's on lately that advertises some behemouth breakfast with 3 kinds of
>meats and a lot of other crap for only 4.99!  It makes me nauseous to look
>at it.

I have never finished a breakfast at a restaurant. I get a full second
meal out of it.

I usually just eat the pancakes at the restaurant (I never make them
at home). I usually can't even finish those. Then I take the eggs and
meat home for a different meal.

--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew  
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 13 Mar 2005 17:29 GMT
I used to travel a lot for work - no glamorous locations - I worked on
transmission line construction for a utility company, and thus spent
time in all kinds of teeny middle of no-where kind of towns and
villages, where I ate in little local diners with the local crew
foremen, the construction super, the environmental coordinators, the
local community relations person etc.

Meals were so inexpensive it would kill you NOT to take advantage of
them, and they were usually package deals (i.e. today's special...which
came with all kinds of stuff. Typical breakfast was a mound of eggs,
bacon, toast, hashed browns, juice, coffee. Lunch would be  something
like soup, a big sandwich like a clubhouse, a mountain of home fries,
dessert, milk, coffee (all included). And then dinner was similar, soup
or salad, a huge meal with veg, meat with gravy, more home fries,
bread, dessert, AAAAAAAAAIIIEEEEEEEEeeee!

Always about 10 times more food than you would eat had you been at
home, and it made keeping a lid on your weight extremely challenging.
It wasn't "fast food" but plain, hearty truck stop kinda over the top
calorific cooking with huge servings. And it was yummy. And I did WANT
it! Give me that Blue Plate Meatloaf and gravy and the mound of mashed
potatoes any day of the week....eeeeek! And the tapioca pudding with
whipped cream on the top! For lunch AND dinner 5 days a week!

Because meals were a very important social thing, plus the place most
business got conducted, it was also next to impossible NOT to eat with
the "guys" and get anything done.

I'd hope I'd be better about it now, since I have way more steely
resolve in my spine than I had back then, but anyone who has to eat in
restaurants due to travel or the nature of their work, has their work
cut out for them.

Mary G.
Polar Light - 11 Mar 2005 11:03 GMT
>>Popular weight loss plans are popular because they
>>work.
>
> I have to disagree with this. Most plans work for the shorterm, but
> they are just "diets" to most people, and will not work in the long
> run because people think it is a short term thing.

I agree, and let's not forget that the vast majority of weight loss plans
are commercial ventures. At the very least you have to buy the book. Many
also promote other products like 'special' foods & recipe books. You're not
obliged to buy these but they can be tempting. All in all, they're
multi-million dollar ventures!

> Jenny Craig and Weight Watchers are very popular, but what percentage
> actually keeps the weight off long term? They give the impression of
> working since people lose while they are on it, but if the person
> hasn't changed their whole way of life and eating, then they will be
> back, and that is what these companies count on - return customers.

These can be good for people who benefit from a support group but they're
also highly commercial.

> There are many good plans that work, but only of it is a long term
> change in the way of eating and exercising. Basically - eat less and
> move more. How you do that is it up to you. No need for a fancy
> "diet".

You couldn't have put it better. A DIY approach works just as well as any
'plan'. If you want to spend $20 you can buy FitDay PC, it has all the
necessary info & you can formulate your own plan: low carb, low fat, high
protein... the info is all there.
SnugBear - 12 Mar 2005 02:44 GMT
> You couldn't have put it better. A DIY approach works just as well as
> any 'plan'. If you want to spend $20 you can buy FitDay PC, it has all
> the necessary info & you can formulate your own plan: low carb, low
> fat, high protein... the info is all there.

There are people who feel if they haven't paid money for something it's
not worth anything.  Walking outside for free isn't as good as paying for
a gym membership; Weight Watchers is expensive so it must be good.  I
don't disrespect motivation from any source as long as it works and I've
invested plenty in my own transformation but *paying* for it was never
motivating for me.

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Laurie in Maine
207/115  New Scale
Start: 2/02  Maintained since 2/03

Polar Light - 12 Mar 2005 08:38 GMT
>> You couldn't have put it better. A DIY approach works just as well as
>> any 'plan'. If you want to spend $20 you can buy FitDay PC, it has all
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> not worth anything.  Walking outside for free isn't as good as paying for
> a gym membership;

This is very true. Walking/jogging/running is FREE, just as slimming should
be. You need to buy food but this is irrespective of whether you're losing
weight, getting fat or maintaining. Dieting itself doesn't have to cost
anything.

> Weight Watchers is expensive so it must be good.  I
> don't disrespect motivation from any source as long as it works and I've
> invested plenty in my own transformation but *paying* for it was never
> motivating for me.

It hasn't been for me either, although I can see that sometimes paying can
be motivating in the sense of wanting to get a return on your investment.
This is how gym memberships work for many people, the need to justify the
expense motivates them to go, whilst they'd probably find good excuses not
to work out @ home. Could be the same with diets, only the cost of
individual items such as a diet book or a box of Atkins Bars isn't high
enough to keep you on track.
SnugBear - 12 Mar 2005 18:54 GMT
> This is very true. Walking/jogging/running is FREE, just as slimming
> should be.

I agree with you *but* I DID have to buy 5 pairs of sneakers the year I
lost weight.  I kept walking the soles right off them!  lol  Now they
last me much longer.

I'm on my way out to snowshoe for the second time today!

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207/115  New Scale
Start: 2/02  Maintained since 2/03

Doug Freyburger - 11 Mar 2005 11:17 GMT
> >Popular weight loss plans are popular because they
> >work.
>
> I have to disagree with this. Most plans work for the shorterm, but
> they are just "diets" to most people, and will not work in the long
> run because people think it is a short term thing.

Thanks for pointing out my error.

Plans get popular because they work in the short term.
Plans stay popular partially because they work in the
short term and partially because a few people manage
to arrive at maintenance on them and serve as examples.

So in my opinion it's a good idea to 1) use a
published plan (because it's tested so you're not just
guessing), 2) that's remained popular for years (to
weed out the most faddish ones), 3) that has a
written maintenance phase (any plan without a
maintenance phase can never cross from a diet to a
way of life), 4) that you think you may be able to
stay on its maintenance phase (if you believe in
your heart the plan is nonsense there's no way you
will stick to it).

That's what I intended to mean and I abbreviated my
comment down much too far.

> Jenny Craig and Weight Watchers are very popular,
> but what percentage actually keeps the weight off
> long term?

For published plans, the maintenance phase makes or
breaks every one.  Any plan without a maintenance
plan isn't one I'd start.

> There are many good plans that work, but only of
> it is a long term change in the way of eating and
> exercising.

> Basically - eat less and move more.

Including strategies to keep metabolism up because
overdoing the eat-less part triggers defensive
starvation modes.  Moving more might or might not
overcome excessive cutting of intake.

> How you do that is it up to you. No need for a fancy
> "diet".

Make vs buy decision.  There is plenty of room for
error when making it up on your own.  Witness folks
posting about going zero carbs (then disappearing off
the radar screen of course) or about cutting to 800
calories for years or whatever.  Good plans should
avoid those pitfalls.  There's no such thing as a
plan that covers all of the issues that come up,
but a good plan handles a bunch of them.
Mary Gordon - 11 Mar 2005 02:03 GMT
Maggie, I lost 60 lb between September and January, almost entirely
via diet (I'm 5' 6" and I went from 195 down to 135...which I'm just
south of now). It isn't rocket science. Its strictly an energy
equation. What comes in has to be less than what goes out, or you
won't lose weight. I've made every excuse in the books over the last
many years for not being able to lose weight. In the final analysis,
it was all a bunch of hooey. I dunno, maybe its like quitting smoking
- maybe before I wasn't ready to really tackle it, and I had to make a
bunch of false starts.

Honestly, I don't think which diet you pick matters that much. Low
carb, low fat, low carb AND low fat, low calorie, whatever! The only
thing that matters is that you find one that you can live with and
stick to, whether that is Jenny Craig, Weight Watchers, Atkins, or any
of the endless variations and ideas there are out there. Any of them
will work if you commit to them - there isn't a magic single answer.
Different ones will suit various lifestyles, preferences etc. better.
You just have to find one that fits you and your life, stop kidding
yourself, and get serious.

I also think you have to get totally serious about success, and set
the scene to get you there. I filled my house with stuff I could eat,
so there would never be a day when I was scrambling for choices (I
have a fridge full of veggies and a pantry full of low calorie stuff).
I did the things that many diet plans recommend. I ate breakfast every
day (including protein). I kept a food diary. I drank tons of fluids
(and still do) - that magic 8-10 glasses a day. I did whatever I had
to do to avoid situations where I would eat without thinking about it
(i.e. whatever triggers you to munch out, whether that is being bored
on the weekend in front of the tube scarfing maple cookies and
popcorn, or hanging out with friends at the Sports bar swilling beer
and eating chicken wings. A food diary will help you be more conscious
of what you are putting in your mouth. We eat a lot of stuff on the
fly without really savouring it. I also bought a scale so I could tune
into appropriate serving sizes (and boy, my previous idea of a
reasonable portion was WAAAAAAY skewed).

You have to plan to change your habits - because losing the weight is
only 1/10 of the fight. Keeping it off means you can't go back to same
old same old, and thats the real war.

I was never a huge overeater, but the weight did creep on over time
(20 lb over the last 2 years alone, the rest came from 3 babies). To
lose the weight, I had to make some radical changes. I mean, think
about it. If you wanted to lose 2 lb a week, that would equate to
reducing your intake 1000 calories a day, which would mean eating
about HALF of your current intake for the average woman. The first
weeks were totally tough, but I got into a groove, and when the pounds
started to come of fairly steadily a pound or two a week, talk about
positive reinforcement. I also graphed my loss, which was a good idea
because I would get very discouraged about stalls, but when you
graphed the overall progress, the line went steadily down (i.e. the
blips were just blips and the trend was steadier than was apparent day
to day).

You have to look at this as a marathon, not a sprint. Don't tell
yourself you'll "try" since that is self talk double speak for
failure. Make up your mind to go all the way, and do it. And if you
fall off the horse, you dust yourself off and get back on, since a
couple of lapses shouldn't mean you just give up.

All these years I've been kvetching and whining and feeling guilty and
miserable about my weight - and all that time the ability to do
something about it was mine. Flash ahead 6 months. Do you want to be
the same, or maybe fatter? Or do you want to put this phase beyond you
and move onto doing what I'm doing - figuring out how to stay where
I've gotten to, but LOVING my new body.

Mary G.
Ignoramus21682 - 11 Mar 2005 02:42 GMT
This is a very wise post that should be saved somewhere.

i

> Maggie, I lost 60 lb between September and January, almost entirely
> via diet (I'm 5' 6" and I went from 195 down to 135...which I'm just
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Mary G.

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joni - 11 Mar 2005 06:21 GMT
> This is a very wise post that should be saved somewhere.

Loved it! Saved it to my folder of favorite posts on my desktop. Yes
occasionally amidst the daily fodder a wise worded gem like this gets
posted :-) Sometimes its just not what you say (things you know but
somehow dont hear it said well enough)but its how you phrase it that
makes for a lightbulb moment of complete understanding. Thanks Mary for
inspiring me today to keep at only what I can do for myself, to quit my
whining and excuses and get on with my journey to a healthier life!

<<joni>>
Marguerite Dedam - 17 Mar 2005 23:19 GMT
Hi there all;

Sorry it taken me a while to respond, i caught the flu and been out of
commission for a while...but, i see i got quite a bit of respond, great
advise....thanks,
Heidi - 11 Mar 2005 05:24 GMT
Nice post, Mary. Thanks for taking the time to share all that.

Heidi

> Maggie, I lost 60 lb between September and January, almost entirely
> via diet (I'm 5' 6" and I went from 195 down to 135...which I'm just
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Mary G.
 
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