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Are set points for real?

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swimgirl - 27 Mar 2005 21:13 GMT
Hi All,
    Yesterday I went for my biweekly meeting with the nutritionist and
found that despite keeping more closely to the food plan and also
exercising a little more I was at the same weight or up a little even
from my last weighing.  We discussed various possible reasons:  weighing
in at a later time in the day (after a meal and a snack), salty food the
night before, less alcohol consumption, OR my being at a plateau or SET
POINT which my body likes  while it readjusts to my new weight.  (I know
what you're thinking, how about the obvious--cheating on the food
plan--but really, it was no more than usual  :))
    In any case, I'm going to continue increasing my exercise as the
weather improves because it's just so much fun to get outside and feel
the sun and hear the birds etc.  And I'm going to try a little more red
wine with dinner; can anyone suggest a nice one that doesn't cost too
much?  Any suggestions will be gratefully accepted.

    Hope everyone is having a super nice day and taking good care of
themselves!

Colleen
208/168/148
GaryG - 27 Mar 2005 21:46 GMT
> Hi All,
> Yesterday I went for my biweekly meeting with the nutritionist and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> what you're thinking, how about the obvious--cheating on the food
> plan--but really, it was no more than usual  :))

I tend to not believe in the Set Point theory, as it seems to defy the laws
of conservation of energy. If you're consuming less calories than you're
burning, you'll lose weight and vice versa.

> In any case, I'm going to continue increasing my exercise as the
> weather improves because it's just so much fun to get outside and feel
> the sun and hear the birds etc.  And I'm going to try a little more red
> wine with dinner; can anyone suggest a nice one that doesn't cost too
> much?  Any suggestions will be gratefully accepted.

If there's a Trade Joe's nearby, their "Two-Buck Chuck" is supposed to be
pretty good.  For everyday drinking, I also like Forestville Cabernet
Sauvignon (around $3/bottle).

GG

> Hope everyone is having a super nice day and taking good care of
> themselves!
>
> Colleen
> 208/168/148
swimgirl - 27 Mar 2005 22:13 GMT
>>Hi All,
>>Yesterday I went for my biweekly meeting with the nutritionist and
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>Colleen
>>208/168/148

Dear Gary,
    Trader Joe's is just about my fav place.  I like the $2 Merlot, too;
I look forward to trying the Forestville Cab Sav--Thank you very much!
colleen
greg - 28 Mar 2005 05:13 GMT
> I tend to not believe in the Set Point theory, as it seems to defy the laws
> of conservation of energy. If you're consuming less calories than you're
> burning, you'll lose weight and vice versa.

Your body adjusts your metabolism down to consume less calories to
preserve weight. You actually want it to be able to do this to survive
famine. It's not a conservation of energy. Your body actually controls
your metabolism so it can decide what to do.

>>In any case, I'm going to continue increasing my exercise as the
>>weather improves because it's just so much fun to get outside and feel
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>Colleen
>>208/168/148
GaryG - 28 Mar 2005 07:17 GMT
> > I tend to not believe in the Set Point theory, as it seems to defy the laws
> > of conservation of energy. If you're consuming less calories than you're
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> famine. It's not a conservation of energy. Your body actually controls
> your metabolism so it can decide what to do.

I've heard that claim before...but, do you have any evidence to support it?

From what I've read, your basic metabolism is pretty consistent.  If you
move X amount per day, it takes X amount of calories to do so (taking into
account age, sex, and body fat percentage).  If you're starving, you may not
have the energy to move around as much so X gets smaller, but your basic
underlying metabolism (i.e., your Basal Metabolic Rate) does not change.

Signature

GG
http://www.WeightWare.com
Your Weight and Health Diary

> >>In any case, I'm going to continue increasing my exercise as the
> >>weather improves because it's just so much fun to get outside and feel
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> >>Colleen
> >>208/168/148
kelbutt - 27 Mar 2005 21:54 GMT
delurking to say I can *always* suggest a wine! I don't know much about
how/what you eat, though. Two relatively cheap faves are Jewel Pinot
Noir (good with salmon or grilled veggies) and Montes Alpha Syrah (with
red meat or spicier foods). Both around $10, and a great bargain for
the price. Assuming you drink about a glass a day, two bottles will get
you through the week nicely, with a little extra to cook with.

If you give me an approximation of your usual daily fare, I'd be happy
to try to pair something more specifically.

kellye
swimgirl - 27 Mar 2005 22:19 GMT
> delurking to say I can *always* suggest a wine! I don't know much about
> how/what you eat, though. Two relatively cheap faves are Jewel Pinot
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> kellye

Dear Kellye,
    Thanks very much for the wine suggestions.  My favorite dinners lately
are grilled halibut, broiled snapper, pork chops, chicken/shrimp/or beef
fajitas, linguine with scampi.  Could you give me a little guidance on
when to add wine to marinade or sauce.  I really am just learning how to
make lower cal/fat substitutions in my cooking.  It's a blast to
practice when it turns out tasty.
Yours, colleen

   
Ignoramus19437 - 27 Mar 2005 22:23 GMT
I have not seen anything evidence based that would irrefutably prove
existence of setpoints.

For me, trying to get below 172 is always extremely difficult,
involves struggles, etc, whereas losing weight when I am above 172 lbs
is much easier.

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swimgirl - 27 Mar 2005 23:29 GMT
> I have not seen anything evidence based that would irrefutably prove
> existence of setpoints.
>
> For me, trying to get below 172 is always extremely difficult,
> involves struggles, etc, whereas losing weight when I am above 172 lbs
> is much easier.

Dear IG...,
Thanks very much for your input.
I'm hoping I can get to goal by the end of summer.  I currently do
between 45 and 90 minutes of exercise 4 to 5 days a week with some free
weights (about 15 minutes 2x a week).  Do you think I need to up it?
Yours, colleen
Ignoramus19437 - 28 Mar 2005 00:43 GMT
>> I have not seen anything evidence based that would irrefutably prove
>> existence of setpoints.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> weights (about 15 minutes 2x a week).  Do you think I need to up it?
> Yours, colleen

I think that whenever you stall, it is a good idea to keep doing what
you are doing, for a month or so, and then consider adjustments.
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Chris Braun - 27 Mar 2005 22:47 GMT
>Hi All,
>    Yesterday I went for my biweekly meeting with the nutritionist and
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Colleen
>208/168/148

I don't know that I believe in set points.  I never experienced what
I'd call a set point during my weight loss, though I did have a few
times when my weight stayed the same for a few weeks.  And I passed
through weights where I'd stayed a long time in the past.  I now weigh
about what I did in high school.  If it's been only two weeks, I
wouldn't worry about it.  It's natural for weight loss to slow as you
get closer to your goal.

Also, I don't know if you've reduced the amount you've been eating as
you lost weight, but at some point you may need to in order to
continue losing.  Otherwise, you can reach a point at which you're
basically eating at a maintenance level for your new weight.  So you
might need to cut back a bit on eating, or, as you mention, increase
exercise.  

Red wine (or any wine) probably won't promote weight loss, but it's
good for you for other reasons.  There are many good inexpensive
wines.  Do you know what sort you prefer -- e.g., cabernet, merlot,
pinot noir, zinfandel, chianti, or whatever?  And are you in the US?
I can make suggestions if you let me know this stuff.  Otherwise, I'd
suggest just going to your local supermarket or Sam's Club or Costco
and picking up a few inexpensive reds and sampling them.

I should note that if you add wine you will be adding calories, so you
may need to compensate for that by cutting a little elsewhere.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
swimgirl - 27 Mar 2005 23:27 GMT
>>Hi All,
>>    Yesterday I went for my biweekly meeting with the nutritionist and
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> 262/130s/130s
> started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
Dear Chris,
    Thanks very much for writing.  I'm in southern california.  I like
mellow red wines and dry white wines very much.  I eat a lot of fish and
chicken and lots of fruit and veggies.  Some cheese for flavoring
(usually less than a tablespoon).  Lots of grilled food and lots of
salads and steamed veggies.  I have quite a sweet tooth which I usually
satisfy with a fruit smoothie after exercise.
    Thanks very much for taking time out of your easter to write.
Yours, colleen
greg - 28 Mar 2005 05:23 GMT
> I don't know that I believe in set points.

They believe in you:

http://www.obgyn.net/newsheadlines/womens_health-Endocrinology-20040726-23.asp

Studies of a stomach hormone called ghrelin in normal-weight women
indicate that the hormone may play a part in re-establishing a body
weight set-point after dieting and exercise.

The researchers, led by Nancy I. Williams, associate professor of
kinesiology at Penn State, wanted to determine if ghrelin release was
associated with body weight, physical exercise, reduced food intake, or
an overall energy deficit.

> I never experienced what
> I'd call a set point during my weight loss, though I did have a few
> times when my weight stayed the same for a few weeks.  

Because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Polar Light - 28 Mar 2005 09:58 GMT
>> I don't know that I believe in set points.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> indicate that the hormone may play a part in re-establishing a body weight
> set-point after dieting and exercise.

There is a confusion involving 'set points' and 'stalls' which, according to
the above, are NOT the same thing. The set point theory refers to
*regaining* weight after losing it, not to being unable to lose any more
(stalling). The OP seems to think her current stall is due to having reached
a set point, which is not what the article above says:

"The stimulatory effect on food intake attributed to ghrelin suggests a
potential role for ghrelin in returning the body to a prior set-point for
body weight after weight loss,"

The study in question shows ghrelin as part of a mechanism to restore
*normal weight* after starvation (or CR due to dieting), it doesn't confirm
the belief that some people have very high set points, like those who have
said "my body wants to be 210".  It also talks about ghrelin as affecting
your *food intake* (apetite) not your *metabolism*, i.e. you'd still lose
weight if you restrict calories, it only makes it more difficult to do so by
increasing apetite.

> The researchers, led by Nancy I. Williams, associate professor of
> kinesiology at Penn State, wanted to determine if ghrelin release was
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
greg - 28 Mar 2005 15:53 GMT
> The study in question shows ghrelin as part of a mechanism to restore
> *normal weight* after starvation (or CR due to dieting), it doesn't confirm
> the belief that some people have very high set points,

It doesn't say normal weight. It says previous set point. As you gain
weight you ratchet up your set point. You body defends the higher weight.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15005834

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/6/R1297
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_n6_v23/ai_7722351
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/1995/0295CS.html

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/bodyweight/leptin.html

Basically, leptin is secreted by adipose tissue (fat). When leptin
levels drop below a certain level, you get hungry. Drop to far, you get
really hungry. Here is the killer: leptin falls, when your fat cells
begin to lose too much of their fat stores, so losing weight (adipose
tissue specifically) causes leptin to drop, and you get hungry all the
time--I think of this as that weird body hunger I get when my weight get
down to where I want it to be.
Dr_Dickie - 28 Mar 2005 16:19 GMT
> > The study in question shows ghrelin as part of a mechanism to restore
> > *normal weight* after starvation (or CR due to dieting), it doesn't confirm
> > the belief that some people have very high set points,
>
> It doesn't say normal weight. It says previous set point. As you gain
> weight you ratchet up your set point. You body defends the higher weight.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15005834

> http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/6/R1297
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_n6_v23/ai_7722351
> http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/1995/0295CS.html

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/bodyweight/leptin.html

> Basically, leptin is secreted by adipose tissue (fat). When leptin
> levels drop below a certain level, you get hungry. Drop to far, you get
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> time--I think of this as that weird body hunger I get when my weight get
> down to where I want it to be.

It is even worse, you don't LOSE adipose tissue, you only deplete the cells
of their lipid stores. However, when you are overweight, you can GAIN
adipose tissue (once the cells get full, your body makes more cells to hold
the extra lipids).  So the fatter you are (over time) the more of leptin
your body gets used to having, the HARDER you are hit by the drop in leptin.
Thus the higher "set point" for that killer hunger.
Ain't genes a bitch, but hey, they got us this far by being this way. We
just have to overcome and enjoy ;-0

Signature

Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'), but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov

Polar Light - 28 Mar 2005 17:07 GMT
>> The study in question shows ghrelin as part of a mechanism to restore
>> *normal weight* after starvation (or CR due to dieting), it doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> think of this as that weird body hunger I get when my weight get down to
> where I want it to be.

I posted about refeeds a few weeks ago after reading some studies about
leptin & that eating above maintenance for a day your body pushes leptin
levels back up a bit. I decided to give it a shot & had two planned refeed
days (not binge days ;-)), 10 or 15 days apart & they seem to have worked,
reducing the hunger afterwards without adversely affecting weight loss,
which is what I was afraid of. Someone posted that one such day could lead
to 'being off-plan for years' but that just didn't happen, on both occasions
I went back on plan feeling better.
swimgirl - 28 Mar 2005 21:35 GMT
>>>The study in question shows ghrelin as part of a mechanism to restore
>>>*normal weight* after starvation (or CR due to dieting), it doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> to 'being off-plan for years' but that just didn't happen, on both occasions
> I went back on plan feeling better.

Dear Polar Light,
    I remember the refeed thread just a little.  What is a refeed, more fat
than usual or more protein.  Did you refeed a meal or a day?  The food
plan I'm on keeps me pretty satisfied hunger wise.  What I've been
denying myself is basically pepperoni pizza and trail mix because those
are my can't stop foods.  Otherwise my problem is volume/portion control
and emotional eating.  I still need to learn to give my body time to
feel full before stuffing in way too much.
    It's kind of fun trying to outsmart my body on this stuff;  have gotten
lots of good info and recipes from this newsgroup.  Plus I love the good
vibes usually abundant--its like the base of my food pyramid.
yours, colleen
Polar Light - 28 Mar 2005 22:42 GMT
>>>>The study in question shows ghrelin as part of a mechanism to restore
>>>>*normal weight* after starvation (or CR due to dieting), it doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> I remember the refeed thread just a little.  What is a refeed, more fat
> than usual or more protein.

Actually, it's supposed to be mostly carbs, see these links:

http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/history/topic/25250-1.html

> Did you refeed a meal or a day?

A day, a meal is probably not enough.

> The food plan I'm on keeps me pretty satisfied hunger wise.  What I've
> been denying myself is basically pepperoni pizza and trail mix because
> those are my can't stop foods.

Trail mix is a killer, once you start on that stuff there's no stopping.
Some people here suggest dividing it into small portions & putting each one
into a little bag to take with you. The problem is what to do with the rest
when you're at home, short of locking it & hiding the key somewhere
inaccessible ;-)

> Otherwise my problem is volume/portion control and emotional eating.  I
> still need to learn to give my body time to feel full before stuffing in
> way too much.

Yes, this what causes most people to gain weight.

> It's kind of fun trying to outsmart my body on this stuff;  have gotten
> lots of good info and recipes from this newsgroup.  Plus I love the good
> vibes usually abundant--its like the base of my food pyramid.
> yours, colleen

They talk about 'outsmarting your body' with regards to its built-in
defences against starvation & the role of leptin. Below are some links on
the subject, despite the bodybuilding bias, the principles apply to everyone
except the very obese, who, according to the articles, have higher leptin
levels.

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=87&pageid=2
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/hormones/hungry_3.htm
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-64.html

Best of luck...
Chris Braun - 29 Mar 2005 00:18 GMT
>> I don't know that I believe in set points.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I never said that it did, just that I was (and remain) skeptical.  I
am aware of the ghrelin research, but it does not appear conclusive
with regard to set points.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
Ignoramus29361 - 29 Mar 2005 05:12 GMT
> I never said that it did, just that I was (and remain) skeptical.  I
> am aware of the ghrelin research, but it does not appear conclusive
> with regard to set points.

I think that it would be difficult to construct any experiment that
would prove existence of set points. You are quite right to be
skeptical. It is a fuzzy concept, unfortunately, but it does not
necessarily make it automatically worthless.

The best experiment about set points that I know of, is the Vermont
prisoner feeding experiment. I could say that they had very difficult
times raising their weight above their setpoint.

======================================================================

`` Sims was interested in whether the metabolic differences observed
between fat and thin people were the result or the cause of their body
type. Put simply, he wanted to know whether people are born fat or
made fat. He decided that the best way to sort this out was to
convince a group of slim volunteers to eat themselves fat and to
observe what happened to them when they reduced to their original
weight.

Sims was fortunate to have nearby a ready source of experimental
subjects: the inmates at Vermont state prison, sufficient numbers of
whom were willing to gorge themselves for science. At first the
prisoners proved enthusiastic trenchermen, as much as doubling their
usual daily intake of food. But as they fattened, they became
increasingly reluctant to overeat. Most found it extremely difficult
to gain weight, and eventually some started to drop out of the
study. Only 20 made it through the requisite 200 days, achieving an
average weight gain of 20-25lbs. Relieved of the high-calorie,
low-exercise regimen, all but two of the inmates quickly dropped the
newly acquired ballast. The pair of inmates who found it most
difficult to lose weight were those who had experienced the least
difficulty gaining weight in the first place. It was later discovered
that both these men had a family history of obesity.

>From this experiment Sims concluded that the body was remarkably well
equipped to balance energy intake and output, and to reach an energy
equilibrium, or "homeostasis", at which it felt naturally
comfortable. What was particularly interesting was that body weight
seemed somehow fixed, and was in most subjects resistant to change
over the short term. The prisoners with obesity in their backgrounds
were, it seemed, genetically inclined to reach homeostasis at a higher
weight than were others; the high-calorie diet only helped manifest
their genetic proclivity.''

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Chris Braun - 29 Mar 2005 14:37 GMT
>> I never said that it did, just that I was (and remain) skeptical.  I
>> am aware of the ghrelin research, but it does not appear conclusive
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>prisoner feeding experiment. I could say that they had very difficult
>times raising their weight above their setpoint.

Seriously, I think there may be some validity in the concept.  But, as
someone else pointed out, it cannot really contradict the law of
thermodynamics.  And it's too readily used as an excuse for diet
stalls or backsliding.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
Ignoramus6685 - 29 Mar 2005 14:57 GMT
>>> I never said that it did, just that I was (and remain) skeptical.  I
>>> am aware of the ghrelin research, but it does not appear conclusive
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> thermodynamics.  And it's too readily used as an excuse for diet
> stalls or backsliding.

Agreed on thermodynamics. Take any person who complains about not
being able to lose weight, "starvation mode" etc, put them in a cage,
starve them, and they would lose weight, at least until they get
starvation edema.

I do not think that "set point theory" is a concept that contradicts
the laws of thermodynamics.

To me, the idea of a set point is a point such that going beyond it,
becomes very difficult. For me, for example, going below 172 is
difficult. I suppose that if I was starved, I would go way below it,
but it is "difficult" for me to do on my own. My willpower simply
stops working very well, at least given my present level of
motivation.

i
greg - 29 Mar 2005 15:53 GMT
> Seriously, I think there may be some validity in the concept.  But, as
> someone else pointed out, it cannot really contradict the law of
> thermodynamics.  And it's too readily used as an excuse for diet
> stalls or backsliding.

How it is used is not important, what matters as what happens. There
seems to be a lot of proof for the idea and it makes perfect sense in a
evolutionary context. How someone thinks it violates the second law is
beyond me. You body makes choices as to what to spend energy on. It can
defund one part of the body to maintain other parts. Of course if you
really starve it won't help, but your body will keep trying to keep the
fat off and only using muscle for energy at the end.
GaryG - 29 Mar 2005 18:58 GMT
> > Seriously, I think there may be some validity in the concept.  But, as
> > someone else pointed out, it cannot really contradict the law of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> evolutionary context. How someone thinks it violates the second law is
> beyond me. You body makes choices as to what to spend energy on. It can

Are you suggesting that the basic metabolic rate is subject to change?  And
that our bodies somehow "choose" to do that?  AFAIK, the rate of energy
required for things like digestion, breathing, pumping blood, etc. is pretty
consistent from person to person.

If the body really can "choose" to change the amount of energy required for
these basic functions, that would imply that the body is operating
inefficiently and wasting energy at times...from an evolutionary
perspective, I find that very hard to believe.

If a person is underfed, they may "choose" to spend more time sitting,
because they don't have the energy for other activities, but the "burn rate"
for sitting is consistent whether or not someone is underfed or below their
supposed "set point".

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http://www.WeightWare.com
Your Weight and Health Diary

> defund one part of the body to maintain other parts. Of course if you
> really starve it won't help, but your body will keep trying to keep the
> fat off and only using muscle for energy at the end.
Ignoramus6685 - 29 Mar 2005 19:03 GMT
>> > Seriously, I think there may be some validity in the concept.  But, as
>> > someone else pointed out, it cannot really contradict the law of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> required for things like digestion, breathing, pumping blood, etc. is pretty
> consistent from person to person.

The parameters that change with "slowed metabolism" are, as far as
I remember:

- Body temperature
- Amount of "twitching" and "fidgeting"
- body composition changes

> If the body really can "choose" to change the amount of energy
> required for these basic functions, that would imply that the body
> is operating inefficiently and wasting energy at times...from an
> evolutionary perspective, I find that very hard to believe.

Inefficiency can mean a large reserve of power.

> If a person is underfed, they may "choose" to spend more time
> sitting, because they don't have the energy for other activities,
> but the "burn rate" for sitting is consistent whether or not someone
> is underfed or below their supposed "set point".

I do not think that it is the case.

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GaryG - 29 Mar 2005 19:39 GMT
> >> > Seriously, I think there may be some validity in the concept.  But, as
> >> > someone else pointed out, it cannot really contradict the law of
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Inefficiency can mean a large reserve of power.

It could...but I doubt that it does.  Evolution does not generally reward
inefficiency.  The fact that we're so efficient at storing excess energy as
fat illustrates that we evolved in environments where the presence of food
was inconsistent.

> > If a person is underfed, they may "choose" to spend more time
> > sitting, because they don't have the energy for other activities,
> > but the "burn rate" for sitting is consistent whether or not someone
> > is underfed or below their supposed "set point".
>
> I do not think that it is the case.
GaryG - 29 Mar 2005 20:13 GMT
> >> > Seriously, I think there may be some validity in the concept.  But, as
> >> > someone else pointed out, it cannot really contradict the law of
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Inefficiency can mean a large reserve of power.

It could...but I doubt that it does.  Evolution does not usually reward
inefficiency.  The fact that we're so efficient at storing excess energy as
fat illustrates that we evolved in environments where the presence of food
was inconsistent.

> > If a person is underfed, they may "choose" to spend more time
> > sitting, because they don't have the energy for other activities,
> > but the "burn rate" for sitting is consistent whether or not someone
> > is underfed or below their supposed "set point".
>
> I do not think that it is the case.
greg - 29 Mar 2005 19:12 GMT
> If the body really can "choose" to change the amount of energy required for
> these basic functions, that would imply that the body is operating
> inefficiently and wasting energy at times...from an evolutionary
> perspective, I find that very hard to believe.

No, it implies not everything is of equal importance. If i want to lower
the energy for a light bulb in my bed room to make sure the light bulb
in my living room burns bright then that is straight forward and is
sensible. It doesn't imply a waste. It implies an organism under stress,
which is what losing weight is to the body, can choose how to spend
calories. Otherwise why is fat consumed before muscle as a source of
energy? The body obviously has this type of mechanism in place.
GaryG - 29 Mar 2005 19:36 GMT
> > If the body really can "choose" to change the amount of energy required for
> > these basic functions, that would imply that the body is operating
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> calories. Otherwise why is fat consumed before muscle as a source of
> energy? The body obviously has this type of mechanism in place.

Well, I can't really tell whether or not we're speaking to the same issues,
but I'll press on regardless.

Using light bulbs is not a very good analogy - you could "choose" to turn
off every appliance in your house, in which case it's "metabolic rate" would
fall to zero.  But, I would not recommend that approach when dealing with
your body, and I doubt your body would "choose" to do so regardless of how
much or little it was being fed.

Basic bodily functions require a certain amount of energy...if the body is
able to modify the energy required for these basic functions, it must be
within a very narrow range.  If you have references to studies showing
otherwise, please post them.

As for why the body consumes fat before muscles as a source of energy...it's
because our bodies have evolved over millions of years to use fat as a
convenient way of storing energy for times of need.  Thus, fat is the
primary fuel source.  Muscles *can* be used as a source of energy, but the
process of converting protein to energy is less efficient than with fat, and
muscles are also used for other purposes.

GG
greg - 29 Mar 2005 20:45 GMT
> Using light bulbs is not a very good analogy - you could "choose" to turn
> off every appliance in your house, in which case it's "metabolic rate" would
> fall to zero.

The point is you don't have to turn off all lights, you can reroute
resources based on priority.

>But, I would not recommend that approach when dealing with
> your body, and I doubt your body would "choose" to do so regardless of how
> much or little it was being fed.

So you doubt your body reacts differently when it detect that it starving?

> As for why the body consumes fat before muscles as a source of energy...it's
> because our bodies have evolved over millions of years to use fat as a
> convenient way of storing energy for times of need.

Yes, and through the same evolutionary process our bodies have evolved
to respond to starvation. Saying that one's metabolism reacts the same
regardless of external stresses seems an odd position.

This talks about the changes that happen:
http://www.nutrisci.wisc.edu/NS350/PPTs/BioMalnutritionP1.ppt
GaryG - 29 Mar 2005 22:12 GMT
> > Using light bulbs is not a very good analogy - you could "choose" to turn
> > off every appliance in your house, in which case it's "metabolic rate" would
> > fall to zero.
>
> The point is you don't have to turn off all lights, you can reroute
> resources based on priority.

If you have links to research backing up this assertion, please post
them.

> >But, I would not recommend that approach when dealing with
> > your body, and I doubt your body would "choose" to do so regardless of how
> > much or little it was being fed.
>
> So you doubt your body reacts differently when it detect that it starving?

It probably does react somewhat differently, but you've offered no
proof as to whether or how our underlying metabolism is changed.  For
instance, in response to "starvation" our bodies could: 1) burn excess
fat, and/or 2) convert muscles into energy.  Both of these are expected
reactions to an underfed situtaion...yet neither involves a change in
metabolism.

> > As for why the body consumes fat before muscles as a source of energy...it's
> > because our bodies have evolved over millions of years to use fat as a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to respond to starvation. Saying that one's metabolism reacts the same
> regardless of external stresses seems an odd position.

Perhaps it's your use of the term "starvation" that's getting in the
way.  When I think of starvation, I think of an extended period of
significant under-feeding (or, no feeding).  Something that anorexics
are familiar with.

But, that's is not the same thing as a "dietary calorie deficit", and I
doubt our bodies react the same way to it.  A healthy calorie deficit
for weight loss is on the order of 250-750 calories per day.  I doubt
that our bodies would get freaked out and go into "starvation mode"
(whatever that means) in response to such a modest deficit...especially
if one were already carrying around 35,000-70,000 calories in mobile
energy reserves (e.g., 10-20 lbs of fat).

> This talks about the changes that happen:
> http://www.nutrisci.wisc.edu/NS350/PPTs/BioMalnutritionP1.ppt

I didn't see anything in that PowerPoint presentation that discussed
normal caloric deficits related to dieting.  The focus seemed to be on
malnutrition and starvation.

GG
greg - 29 Mar 2005 22:19 GMT
> I didn't see anything in that PowerPoint presentation that discussed
> normal caloric deficits related to dieting.  The focus seemed to be on
> malnutrition and starvation.

Losing weight is starvation.
GaryG - 29 Mar 2005 22:51 GMT
> > I didn't see anything in that PowerPoint presentation that discussed
> > normal caloric deficits related to dieting.  The focus seemed to be on
> > malnutrition and starvation.
>
> Losing weight is starvation.

Hmmm....on that I think we'll have to disagree.  Looking up the
definition for "starvation", I find:

"a state of extreme hunger resulting from lack of essential nutrients
over a prolonged period"

Plenty of people manage to lose weight without "extreme hunger", or a
"lack of essential nutrients", and without the accompanying negative
psychological effects of true starvation (e.g., depression, anxiety,
apathy, loss of libido).  In fact, healthy weight loss often has
positive psychological effects.
greg - 30 Mar 2005 00:56 GMT
> Hmmm....on that I think we'll have to disagree.  Looking up the
> definition for "starvation", I find:

What does your body notice? It notices you are losing weight. Losing
weight is bad because it means you could be entering a starvation
period. It has no way of knowing that you have a plentiful supply of
food available. So what would you have it do? Leave it up to your
rational mind to determine when to eat? That's not how it works.
Dr_Dickie - 28 Mar 2005 12:57 GMT
Signature

Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'), but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov

> Hi All,
> Yesterday I went for my biweekly meeting with the nutritionist and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> what you're thinking, how about the obvious--cheating on the food
> plan--but really, it was no more than usual  :))

Your "set-point" can result in a decrease in the thermogenic effect (that is
you get cold because your body does not shunt extra calories to producing
heat--it conserves them for storage); however, there are limitations to how
this can stall you. You cannot violate the law of thermodynamics (that is
calories in, calories out), so your body's ability to stall weight loss is
limited.  There are so many factors that go into what you weight one day
versus the next (water, bowel movement, etc.) that a plateau happens to
everyone.  Remember, the more overweight you are, the faster the weight can
come off. The more you lose, the lower your resting metabolic rate becomes,
the slower the weight loss at the same calories in (calories out decreases).
And when  you are exercising, additional muscle mass can off-set some fat
loss weight (and that is a good thing!).
The "set-point" is more about how your body's endocrinology responds to the
depletetion of your fat cells (Google: Leptin to learn more--just one of the
players found so far).  I know when I hit mine, in that I get cold hands,
and a whole body hunger--hard to descibe, it feels like my body is depleted
of something (I am voting for fat!!).  This can make things tougher, but it
can help to focus on the good as well.

> In any case, I'm going to continue increasing my exercise as the
> weather improves because it's just so much fun to get outside and feel
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Colleen
> 208/168/148
Eat an apple when you get ravenously hungry.
Great work so far!!
Relax and enjoy life.
That's what it takes.  Remember, it is a change of life, not a time limited
diet.  You have changed who you are, the rest is just annoying details that
change day to day, month to month.
swimgirl - 28 Mar 2005 16:18 GMT
Dear Dr_Dickie,
    Thank you for your information.  I am always interested in your
postings.  I will goggle that liptin.  The encouragement is much
appreciated.
your, colleen
 
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