Weight Loss Forum / General Topics / January 2006
Relationship between low-nutrient-food that is grown on soil in Australia/USA and obesity?
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cguttman - 12 Jan 2006 23:26 GMT Hello,
I was wandering along the beach and the following thought striked me the other day.
The people most obese are those from the USA and Australia. What these two countries have in common is that people grow grains and breed animals that are traditionally consumed in Europe and Asia. The soil in Australia is different in nutrients than in Europe. So, traditional Asian and European food grown in Australia has a different content of minerals and vitamins than in Europe or Asia. Now, I wonder, is there a relationship between food with different (lower) minerals and vitamins and obesity?
Provided that the soil in the US also differs to the soil in Europe and Asia, then there would be a similar difference in nutrients in food grown in the US. If consuming lower nutrient food influences weight in people, than this would partially explain why people in the US and Australia are the most obese in the world.
If my little thought experiment is correct, than these people ought to eat food that is native to the soil of the continent, because such plants are adapted to the soil and can extract a higher amount of nutrients, for example, kangaroo or macademis nuts in Australia.
Are there any studies on this topic? I would be very interested if my hypothesis has been stated and investigated in research?
Chris
Scott - 13 Jan 2006 00:14 GMT In alt.support.diet cguttman <4everclever4@web.de> wrote:
> Provided that the soil in the US also differs to the soil in Europe and > Asia, then there would be a similar difference in nutrients in food > grown in the US. If consuming lower nutrient food influences weight in > people, than this would partially explain why people in the US and > Australia are the most obese in the world. You have it correct. People in the USA are fat because they eat low-nutrient food. We overeat because our bodies tell us that we haven't satisified our nutritional requirements and so we eat more of the crummy food. To top it off, we sit all day at work or in front of the tv instead of getting up and exercising.
However, the food is not nutrient-deficient because the soil is lacking, but rather because people purposely remove the nutrients from the food. Instead of eating wheat, we remove everything except the least nutritional part, bleach and polish it, and make white bread. Instead of vegetables we eat french fries and potato chips. Instead of eating fruit to satisfy a sweet tooth, we eat sugar. A recipe for disaster, and most people are all too ready to disclaim responsibility for their health and blame it on their genes.
--Scott
Pizzza Girl - 13 Jan 2006 00:54 GMT People in America are fat becuse they get much less exercise
-They have automatic washing machines. -They drive everywhere and have cars -They can buy factory made bread and other foods -They don't participate in as many sports -They are as sexually oriented in their culture and don't care about image as much -They don't need to do dishes by hand -They have refrigerators to keep more food -They have more electrical power to use instead of hand machines -They have modern flooring that doesn't need sweeping or polishing (as much) -They don't wipe their a.ses as often -They have warm showers, lowering their metabolism, more than once per month. -They can throw worn out socks away instead of darning them for years. -They can afford butter and tastier fats. -They don't expend calories whining as often
> In alt.support.diet cguttman <4everclever4@web.de> wrote: > > Provided that the soil in the US also differs to the soil in Europe and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > --Scott cguttman - 13 Jan 2006 02:26 GMT Thanks Scott...
You missed my point though. Bleaching and polishing wheat and thus removing vital nutrients from food happens anywhere in the western world - not only in the USA and Australia. That is why I pointed to the soil as being the main factor that contributes to poor nutrients in food in the US and Australia (and maybe to obesity).
So, lack of exercise and eating potatoechips happens everywhere in the western world, but the fattest people are living in Australia and the US. To explain this phenomena, I suggested that it could be the food grown in these countries, because commonly used European plants and animals can absorb less nutrients in American and Australian soil. Could that be?
Chris
> However, the food is not nutrient-deficient because the soil is lacking, > but rather because people purposely remove the nutrients from the food. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > --Scott creamvespa - 13 Jan 2006 20:14 GMT WHAT'S WRONG WITH FOOD IRRADIATION February 2002
Irradiation damages the quality of food. · Irradiation damages food by breaking up molecules and creating free radicals. The free radicals kill some bacteria, but not all! The free radicals bounce around in the food, damage vitamins and enzymes, and combine with existing chemicals (like pesticides) in the food to form new chemicals, called unique radiolytic products (URPs). · Some of these URPs are known toxins (e.g., benzene, formaldehyde). Some are unique to irradiated foods and never studied. In the approval of irradiation, the long-term effect of these new chemicals in our diet were never studied. · Irradiated foods lose 5%-80% of vitamins A, C, E, K or B complex. That's a big range, but foods vary greatly. Different foods lose different vitamins. Also, the amount of loss changes when the dose of irradiation or storage time is changed. · Most of the food in the American diet is already approved for irradiation by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA): beef, pork, lamb, poultry, wheat, wheat flour, vegetables, fruits, eggs in the shell, seeds for sprouting, spices, herb teas. (Dairy is already pasteurized). The FDA is currently considering a food industry petition to irradiate luncheon meats, salad bar items, sprouts, fresh juices and frozen foods. The USDA is considering irradiation for imported fruits and vegetables. · Like cooking, irradiation damages the enzymes found in raw foods. This means our bodies must work harder to digest them. · Irradiation by any source--electron beams, x-rays or nuclear gamma rays-has the same effect on the food.
Science has not proved that a diet high in irradiated foods is safe in the long term. · The longest human feeding study was 15 weeks, in China. The data is not available in English. No one knows the health effects of a life-long diet that includes a large number of foods that can already be legally irradiated in the U.S., such as meat, chicken, vegetables, fruits, salads, eggs and sprouts. · There are no studies on the effects of feeding normal babies or children diets containing irradiated foods. A very small study from India on malnourished children showed health effects. · Studies on animals fed irradiated foods have shown increased tumors, reproductive failures and kidney damage. Some possible causes are: irradiation-induced vitamin deficiencies, the inactivity of enzymes in the food, DNA damage, and toxic radiolytic products in the food. · The FDA based its approval of irradiation for poultry on only seven of 441 animal-feeding studies submitted. Marcia van Gemert, Ph.D., the toxicologist who chaired the FDA committee that approved irradiation, later said, "These studies reviewed in the 1982 literature from the FDA were not adequate by 1982 standards, and are even less accurate by 1993 standards to evaluate the safety of any product, especially a food product such as irradiated food." The seven studies are not a good basis for approval of irradiation for humans, because they showed health effects on the animals or were conducted using irradiation at lower energies than those the FDA eventually approved. · The FDA based its approval of irradiation for fruits and vegetables on a theoretical calculation of the amount of URPs in the diet from one 7.5 oz. serving/day of irradiated food. Considering the different kinds of foods approved for irradiation, this quantity is too small and the calculation is irrelevant. · Even with current labeling requirements, people cannot avoid eating irradiated food. That means there is no control group, and epidemiologists will never be able to determine if irradiated food has any health effects.
Irradiation covers up problems that the meat and poultry industry should solve · Irradiation covers up the increased fecal contamination that results from speeded up slaughter and decreased federal inspection. Prodded by the industry, the USDA has allowed a transfer of inspection to company inspectors. Where government inspectors remain, they are not allowed to condemn meat and poultry now that they condemned 20 years ago. · Because of this deregulation, the meat and poultry industry since the '90s has lost money and suffered bad publicity from food-poisoning lawsuits and expensive product recalls. Irradiation is a "magic bullet" that will enable them to say that the product was "clean" when it left the packing plant. (Irradiation, however, does not sterilize food, and any bacteria that remain can multiply to toxic proportions if the food is not properly stored and handled.)
Labeling is necessary to inform people so they can choose to avoid irradiated foods. · Because irradiated foods have not been proven safe for human health in the long term, prominent, conspicuous and truthful labels are necessary for all irradiated foods. Consumers should be able to easily determine if their food has been irradiated. Labels should also be required for irradiated ingredients of compound foods, and for restaurant and institutional foods. · Because irradiation depletes vitamins, labels should state the amount of vitamin loss after irradiation, especially for fresh foods that are usually eaten fresh. Consumers have the right to know if they are buying nutritionally impaired foods. · Current US labels are not sufficient to enable consumers to avoid irradiated food. Foods are labeled only to the first purchaser. Irradiated spices, herb teas and supplement ingredients, foods that are served in restaurants, schools, etc., or receive further processing, do not bear consumer labels. Labels are required only for irradiated foods sold whole (like a piece of fruit) or irradiated in the package (like chicken breasts). A radura is required. The text with the declaration of irradiation can be as small as the type face on the ingredient label. The US Department of Agriculture requirements have one difference: irradiated meat or poultry that is part of another food (like a tv dinner) must be disclosed on the label. · The US Food and Drug Administration is currently rewriting the regulation for minimum labeling, and will release it for public comment in 2002. They may eliminate all required text labels. If they do retain the labels, Congress has already told them to use an alternative term instead of "irradiation."
Electron-beam irradiation today means nuclear irradiation tomorrow. · The original sponsor of food irradiation in the US was the Department of Energy, which wanted to create a favorable image of nuclear power as well as dispose of radioactive waste. These goals have not changed. · Many foods cannot be irradiated using electron beams. E-beams only penetrate 1-1.5 inches on each side, and are suitable only for flat, evenly sized foods like patties. Large fruits, foods in boxes, and irregularly shaped foods must be irradiated using x-rays or gamma rays from nuclear materials. · Countries that lack a cheap and reliable source of electricity for e-beams use nuclear materials. Opening U.S. markets to irradiated food encourages the spread of nuclear irradiation worldwide for export crops.
Irradiation using radioactive materials is an environmental hazard. · Nuclear irradiation facilities have already contaminated the environment. For example, in the state of Georgia in 1988, radioactive water escaped from an irradiation facility. The taxpayers were stuck with $47 million in cleanup costs. Radioactivity was tracked into cars and homes. In Hawaii in 1967 and New Jersey in 1982, radioactive water was flushed into the public sewer system. Numerous worker exposures have occurred in food irradiation facilities worldwide.
Irradiation doesn't provide clean food. · Because irradiation doesn't sterilize (kill all the bacteria in a food), the ones that survive are by definition radiation-resistant. These bacteria will multiply and eventually work their way back to the 'animal factories'. Eventually, the bacteria that contaminate the meat will no longer be killed by currently approved doses of irradiation. The technology will no longer be usable, while stronger bacteria contaminate our food supply. · Irradiation doesn't kill all the bacteria in a food. In a few hours at room temperature, the bacteria remaining in meat or poultry after irradiation can multiply to the level existing before irradiation. · Some bacteria, like the one that causes botulism, as well as viruses and prions (which are believed to cause Mad Cow Disease) are not killed by current doses of irradiation or by doses that leave the food palatable.
Irradiation does nothing to change the way food is grown and produced. · Irradiated foods can have longer shelf lives than nonirradiated foods, which means they can be shipped further while appearing 'fresh.' Food grown by giant farms far away may last longer than nonirradiated, locally grown food, even if it is inferior in nutrition and taste. Thus, irradiation encourages centralization and hurts small farmers. · The use of pesticides, antibiotics, hormones and other agrochemicals, as well as pollution and energy use, are not affected. Irradiation is applied by the packer after harvest or slaughter. · Free-market economists say irradiation is 'efficient': it provides the cheapest possible food for the least possible risk. But these economists are not considering the impaired nutritional quality of the food, the environmental effects of large-scale corporate farming, the social costs of centralization of agriculture and loss of family farms, the potential long-term damage to human health, and the possibility of irradiation-resistant super-bacteria. All of these developments should be (but are not) considered when regulators and public health officials evaluate the benefits of food irradiation.
Brought to you by: Organic Consumers Association <http://www.organicconsumers.org/irradlink.html> Office: 6114 Highway 61, Little Marais, MN 55614 (218) 226-4164, Fax: (218) 226-4157. OCA contact: danila@purefood.org
Patricia Heil - 14 Jan 2006 23:39 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Chris In 1936 the US Senate commissioned a study on the Dust Bowl and found that if there aren't enough nutrients in the soil for the plants the result is not that they produce food with lower nutrients. The result is that the plants don't grow.
Haven't you ever heard of fertilizer?
cguttman - 27 Jan 2006 07:09 GMT Hi Patricia,
why do the same kinds of food have a variable amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a variable amount of selenium, I have seen numbers ranging from 5% RDI to 120% RDI per brazil nut.
cheers, Chris
Patricia Heil wrote:
>>Hello, >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Haven't you ever heard of fertilizer? Enrico C - 27 Jan 2006 09:15 GMT On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:09:03 +1100, cguttman wrote in <news:43d9c715$0$9370$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> on sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet :
> brazil nuts seem to have a > variable amount of selenium, A result of the soil where they are grown?
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Neryl Chyphes - 27 Jan 2006 10:06 GMT > Hi Patricia, > > why do the same kinds of food have a variable > amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a > variable amount of selenium, I have seen numbers ranging from 5% RDI to > 120% RDI per brazil nut. I have eaten a lot Brazil Nuts in Australia, but guess what? They weren't grown there!
Chypho...
TC - 27 Jan 2006 15:07 GMT > Hi Patricia, > > why do the same kinds of food have a variable > amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a > variable amount of selenium, I have seen numbers ranging from 5% RDI to > 120% RDI per brazil nut. Different soils contain different levels of selenium. Some depleted soils occur naturally, others are depleted by poor farming practices. And there are also problems with how they are tested for these micro-nutrients. Some companies just take the values determined by govt agencies and apply it to their product. Some may actually test a few batches themsleves. Who the heck knows how each company does it? I am always sceptical to some degree about how accurate these food nutrient valuations on the packages.
TC
Enrico C - 27 Jan 2006 15:42 GMT On 27 Jan 2006 07:07:16 -0800, TC wrote in <news:1138374436.949560.134080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> on sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet :
> Some companies just take the values determined by govt > agencies and apply it to their product. Usually you can easily spot that, 'cause all the values on that product are identical to the official ones, and that is quite odd, isn't it? ;-)
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Doug Freyburger - 27 Jan 2006 20:29 GMT > > why do the same kinds of food have a variable > > amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Different soils contain different levels of selenium. Some depleted > soils occur naturally, others are depleted by poor farming practices. That's why supplements are recommended so often I think. Supplements are for micronutrients that should be in the farmed foods we eat but you're never sure how depleted the soil was, how much the plant was bred for production not vitamin content, how early the crop was harvested. With top notch produce supplements shouldn't be needed but that meaning of top notch requires carefull testing. So it's a belt-and-suspenders situation maybe getting vitamins and trace minerals from plants, definitely getting them from tablets, definitely absorbing them from plants, maybe absorbing them from tablets.
> And there are also problems with how they are tested for these > micro-nutrients. Some companies just take the values determined by govt [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > TC TC - 27 Jan 2006 20:50 GMT > > > why do the same kinds of food have a variable > > > amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > > > TC Most cattle farmers add selenium to their grain feed because it is lacking in the grain they grow. Why it isn't higher on our radar screens for humans food, who knows?
TC
cguttman - 27 Jan 2006 21:22 GMT Thanks folks - this was helpful.
So, would anyone say in general that people crave more food, if it has less vitamins and minerals? For example, does eating oats of brand A that contains less vitamins then oats of brand B result in eating more oats of brand A (provided that the vitamin need of ones body is not met yet).
Chris
> Most cattle farmers add selenium to their grain feed because it is > lacking in the grain they grow. Why it isn't higher on our radar > screens for humans food, who knows? > > TC TC - 27 Jan 2006 21:28 GMT I doubt it. Fresh oats will be chock full of vitamins, but if it sits for too long or is exposed to too much heat in storage over time, much of its water soluble vitamins will degrade and disappear, but its ability to satiate probably will not change. You will not experience any craving per se.
Should you eat vitamin depleted foods over time though, eventually you will show signs of vitamin deficiency.
But the general concept of craving missing nutrients is not an area that I've explored in any depth. Good question though.
TC
> Thanks folks - this was helpful. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > TC cguttman - 27 Jan 2006 21:54 GMT Yes, it would be intersting to know if nutrient depleted food would cause cravings for missing nutrient, and it would explain a few phenomena.
For example, people would feel hungry although they have eaten more calories than is needed by their body. It would also shed light into the phenomena that "thinner" people are often not as healthy as "fatter" people. The reason is that thin and big people might eat the same kinds of food, but if food has less nutrients than thinner people will likely to have eaten too little nutrients, which in turn makes them ill.
This also means that there is an advantage to be "fatter" - if indeed most (cheap and junk) food has less nutrients, than fatter people will at least have eaten enough nutrients needed by a human body. In contrast, thin people who eat the same food than "fatter" people, but eat less of it, will probably become sick. With other words, if one eats less, one has to be more careful about the diet to ensure the consumption of all vitamins and minerals. This diet would probably contain a lot top quality food or homemade food.
Chris
> I doubt it. Fresh oats will be chock full of vitamins, but if it sits > for too long or is exposed to too much heat in storage over time, much [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>> >>>TC Doug Freyburger - 30 Jan 2006 15:49 GMT > Yes, it would be intersting to know if nutrient depleted food would > cause cravings for missing nutrient, and it would explain a few phenomena. The market forces would push foods that have little nutrition for one thing. Part of why labelling laws happened is come companies were doing this I suspect. Labelling laws work to keep this trend from dominating.
I've seen people on low fat diets crave greasy foods. If their cravings were accurate they'd crave specific sources of the essential fatty acids they are missing but cravings aren't that specific. During Induction I remember the crab cravings when I started going low carb. If I hadn't been determined to follow the directions I might have caved in and returned to eating high carb. I don't know if these sorts of cravings extend to micronutrients, though. I bet if they do the cravings aren't specific enough. And that would cause folks to overeat.
cguttman - 30 Jan 2006 23:19 GMT So, I received no definite reply to the questions that have been raised throughout this discussion.
1) Are there any studies about how soils containing different nutrients alter the nutrient content of the fruits/vegies/nuts/grains?
2) Are there any studies that investigate if low nutrient food causes people to overeat, because people crave for food until they have satisfied their nutritional requirements?
If these issues are indeed underexplored, I wonder if there is someone out there who is about to do research (maybe a PhD) on this topic. If so, I am very interested to get into this area of science. Send me an email if you like to collaborate.
cheers, Chris
>>Yes, it would be intersting to know if nutrient depleted food would >>cause cravings for missing nutrient, and it would explain a few phenomena. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > extend to micronutrients, though. I bet if they do the cravings > aren't specific enough. And that would cause folks to overeat. Enrico C - 27 Jan 2006 23:49 GMT On 27 Jan 2006 13:28:56 -0800, TC wrote in <news:1138397336.746326.82690@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> on sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet :
> I doubt it. So do I.
> Fresh oats will be chock full of vitamins, but if it sits > for too long or is exposed to too much heat in storage over time, Or if you cook them, I suppose...
> much > of its water soluble vitamins will degrade and disappear, but its > ability to satiate probably will not change. You will not experience > any craving per se. Yep! I guess the satiating index of cereals much depends on their fiber content, not on vitamins.
> Should you eat vitamin depleted foods over time though, eventually you > will show signs of vitamin deficiency. > > But the general concept of craving missing nutrients is not an area > that I've explored in any depth. Good question though. Agreed.
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 Signature Enrico C
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Enrico C - 28 Jan 2006 00:37 GMT On 27 Jan 2006 13:28:56 -0800, TC wrote in <news:1138397336.746326.82690@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> on sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet :
> I doubt it. So do I.
> Fresh oats will be chock full of vitamins, but if it sits > for too long or is exposed to too much heat in storage over time, Or if you cook them, I suppose...
> much > of its water soluble vitamins will degrade and disappear, but its > ability to satiate probably will not change. You will not experience > any craving per se. Yep! I guess the satiating index of cereals greatly depends on their fiber content, not on vitamins.
> Should you eat vitamin depleted foods over time though, eventually you > will show signs of vitamin deficiency. > > But the general concept of craving missing nutrients is not an area > that I've explored in any depth. Good question though. Agreed.
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X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
 Signature Enrico C
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Neryl Chyphes - 27 Jan 2006 10:04 GMT >... > The people most obese are those from the USA and Australia. And Germany.
Plenty of skinny people in Australia, too.
In the US, fatness tends to run in families who *live* together. Ie, shared habits rather than shared genes and shared micronutrient profiles.
Chypho...
cguttman - 27 Jan 2006 21:31 GMT >> ... >> The people most obese are those from the USA and Australia. > > And Germany. According to OECD statistics, 12.8% Germans, and 30.6% Americans are obese. Of all OECD countries, that makes Germany lieing somewhere in the middle, pretty far apart from the USA. The highest percentange of obese people overall can be found in the USA, closely followed by Mexico and Australia. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bmi30chart.png for a OECD chart on obesity.
Chris
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 27 Jan 2006 20:48 GMT Hey, I don't think we can blame nutrients. Per capita caloric intake for North Americans goes up every year.
People are getting fatter and fatter because they are living in cities, living sedentary lives, watching the tube or on the computer, and eating junk.
M.
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