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Relationship between low-nutrient-food that is grown on soil in Australia/USA and obesity?

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cguttman - 12 Jan 2006 23:26 GMT
Hello,

I was wandering along the beach and the following thought striked me the
other day.

The people most obese are those from the USA and Australia. What these
two countries have in common is that people grow grains and breed
animals that are traditionally consumed in Europe and Asia. The soil in
Australia is different in nutrients than in Europe. So, traditional
Asian and European food grown in Australia has a different content of
minerals and vitamins than in Europe or Asia. Now, I wonder, is there a
relationship between food with different (lower) minerals and vitamins
and obesity?

Provided that the soil in the US also differs to the soil in Europe and
Asia, then there would be a similar difference in nutrients in food
grown in the US. If consuming lower nutrient food influences weight in
people, than this would partially explain why people in the US and
Australia are the most obese in the world.

If my little thought experiment is correct, than these people ought to
eat food that is native to the soil of the continent, because such
plants are adapted to the soil and can extract a higher amount of
nutrients, for example, kangaroo or macademis nuts in Australia.

Are there any studies on this topic? I would be very interested if my
hypothesis has been stated and investigated in research?

Chris
Scott - 13 Jan 2006 00:14 GMT
In alt.support.diet cguttman <4everclever4@web.de> wrote:
> Provided that the soil in the US also differs to the soil in Europe and
> Asia, then there would be a similar difference in nutrients in food
> grown in the US. If consuming lower nutrient food influences weight in
> people, than this would partially explain why people in the US and
> Australia are the most obese in the world.

You have it correct.  People in the USA are fat because they eat
low-nutrient food.  We overeat because our bodies tell us that we haven't
satisified our nutritional requirements and so we eat more of the crummy
food.  To top it off, we sit all day at work or in front of the tv instead
of getting up and exercising.

However, the food is not nutrient-deficient because the soil is lacking,
but rather because people purposely remove the nutrients from the food.
Instead of eating wheat, we remove everything except the least nutritional
part, bleach and polish it, and make white bread.  Instead of vegetables
we eat french fries and potato chips.  Instead of eating fruit to satisfy
a sweet tooth, we eat sugar.  A recipe for disaster, and most people are
all too ready to disclaim responsibility for their health and blame it on
their genes.

--Scott
Pizzza Girl - 13 Jan 2006 00:54 GMT
People in America are fat becuse they get much less
exercise

-They have automatic washing machines.
-They drive everywhere and have cars
-They can buy factory made bread and other foods
-They don't participate in as many sports
-They are as sexually oriented in their culture and
don't care about image as much
-They don't need to do dishes by hand
-They have refrigerators to keep more food
-They have more electrical power to use instead of hand
machines
-They have modern flooring that doesn't need sweeping
or polishing (as much)
-They don't wipe their a.ses as often
-They have warm showers, lowering their metabolism,
more than once per month.
-They can throw worn out socks away instead of darning
them for years.
-They can afford butter and tastier fats.
-They don't expend calories whining as often

> In alt.support.diet cguttman <4everclever4@web.de> wrote:
> > Provided that the soil in the US also differs to the soil in Europe and
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> --Scott
cguttman - 13 Jan 2006 02:26 GMT
Thanks Scott...

You missed my point though. Bleaching and polishing wheat and thus
removing vital nutrients from food happens anywhere in the western world
- not only in the USA and Australia. That is why I pointed to the soil
as being the main factor that contributes to poor nutrients in food in
the US and Australia (and maybe to obesity).

So, lack of exercise and eating potatoechips happens everywhere in the
western world, but the fattest people are living in Australia and the
US. To explain this phenomena, I suggested that it could be the food
grown in these countries, because commonly used European plants and
animals can absorb less nutrients in American and Australian soil. Could
that be?

Chris

> However, the food is not nutrient-deficient because the soil is lacking,
> but rather because people purposely remove the nutrients from the food.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> --Scott
creamvespa - 13 Jan 2006 20:14 GMT
WHAT'S WRONG WITH FOOD IRRADIATION
February 2002

Irradiation damages the quality of food.
·    Irradiation damages food by breaking up molecules and creating free
radicals. The free radicals kill some bacteria, but not all! The free
radicals bounce around in the food, damage vitamins and enzymes, and
combine with existing chemicals (like pesticides) in the food to form
new chemicals, called unique radiolytic products (URPs).
·    Some of these URPs are known toxins (e.g., benzene, formaldehyde).
Some are unique to irradiated foods and never studied. In the approval
of irradiation, the long-term effect of these new chemicals in our diet
were never studied.
·    Irradiated foods lose 5%-80% of vitamins A, C, E, K or B complex.
That's a big range, but foods vary greatly. Different foods lose
different vitamins. Also, the amount of loss changes when the dose of
irradiation or storage time is changed.
·    Most of the food in the American diet is already approved for
irradiation by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA): beef, pork,
lamb, poultry, wheat, wheat flour, vegetables, fruits, eggs in the
shell, seeds for sprouting, spices, herb teas. (Dairy is already
pasteurized). The FDA is currently considering a food industry petition
to irradiate luncheon meats, salad bar items, sprouts, fresh juices and
frozen foods. The USDA is considering irradiation for imported fruits
and vegetables.
·    Like cooking, irradiation damages the enzymes found in raw foods.
This means our bodies must work harder to digest them.
·    Irradiation by any source--electron beams, x-rays or nuclear gamma
rays-has the same effect on the food.

Science has not proved that a diet high in irradiated foods is safe in
the long term.
·    The longest human feeding study was 15 weeks, in China. The data is
not available in English. No one knows the health effects of a
life-long diet that includes a large number of foods that can already
be legally irradiated in the U.S., such as meat, chicken, vegetables,
fruits, salads, eggs and sprouts.
·    There are no studies on the effects of feeding normal babies or
children diets containing irradiated foods. A very small study from
India on malnourished children showed health effects.
·    Studies on animals fed irradiated foods have shown increased
tumors, reproductive failures and kidney damage. Some possible causes
are: irradiation-induced vitamin deficiencies, the inactivity of
enzymes in the food, DNA damage, and toxic radiolytic products in the
food.
·    The FDA based its approval of irradiation for poultry on only seven
of 441 animal-feeding studies submitted. Marcia van Gemert, Ph.D., the
toxicologist who chaired the FDA committee that approved irradiation,
later said, "These studies reviewed in the 1982 literature from the FDA
were not adequate by 1982 standards, and are even less accurate by 1993
standards to evaluate the safety of any product, especially a food
product such as irradiated food." The seven studies are not a good
basis for approval of irradiation for humans, because they showed
health effects on the animals or were conducted using irradiation at
lower energies than those the FDA eventually approved.
·    The FDA based its approval of irradiation for fruits and vegetables
on a theoretical calculation of the amount of URPs in the diet from one
7.5 oz. serving/day of irradiated food. Considering the different kinds
of foods approved for irradiation, this quantity is too small and the
calculation is irrelevant.
·    Even with current labeling requirements, people cannot avoid eating
irradiated food. That means there is no control group, and
epidemiologists will never be able to determine if irradiated food has
any health effects.

Irradiation covers up problems that the meat and poultry industry
should solve
·    Irradiation covers up the increased fecal contamination that
results from speeded up slaughter and decreased federal inspection.
Prodded by the industry, the USDA has allowed a transfer of inspection
to company inspectors. Where government inspectors remain, they are not
allowed to condemn meat and poultry now that they condemned 20 years
ago.
·    Because of this deregulation, the meat and poultry industry since
the '90s has lost money and suffered bad publicity from
food-poisoning lawsuits and expensive product recalls. Irradiation is a
"magic bullet" that will enable them to say that the product was
"clean" when it left the packing plant. (Irradiation, however, does
not sterilize food, and any bacteria that remain can multiply to toxic
proportions if the food is not properly stored and handled.)

Labeling is necessary to inform people so they can choose to avoid
irradiated foods.
·    Because irradiated foods have not been proven safe for human health
in the long term, prominent, conspicuous and truthful labels are
necessary for all irradiated foods. Consumers should be able to easily
determine if their food has been irradiated. Labels should also be
required for irradiated ingredients of compound foods, and for
restaurant and institutional foods.
·    Because irradiation depletes vitamins, labels should state the
amount of vitamin loss after irradiation, especially for fresh foods
that are usually eaten fresh. Consumers have the right to know if they
are buying nutritionally impaired foods.
·    Current US labels are not sufficient to enable consumers to avoid
irradiated food. Foods are labeled only to the first purchaser.
Irradiated spices, herb teas and supplement ingredients, foods that are
served in restaurants, schools, etc., or receive further processing, do
not bear consumer labels. Labels are required only for irradiated foods
sold whole (like a piece of fruit) or irradiated in the package (like
chicken breasts). A radura is required. The text with the declaration
of irradiation can be as small as the type face on the ingredient
label. The US Department of Agriculture requirements have one
difference: irradiated meat or poultry that is part of another food
(like a tv dinner) must be disclosed on the label.
·    The US Food and Drug Administration is currently rewriting the
regulation for minimum labeling, and will release it for public comment
in 2002. They may eliminate all required text labels. If they do retain
the labels, Congress has already told them to use an alternative term
instead of "irradiation."

Electron-beam irradiation today means nuclear irradiation tomorrow.
·    The original sponsor of food irradiation in the US was the
Department of Energy, which wanted to create a favorable image of
nuclear power as well as dispose of radioactive waste. These goals have
not changed.
·    Many foods cannot be irradiated using electron beams. E-beams only
penetrate 1-1.5 inches on each side, and are suitable only for flat,
evenly sized foods like patties. Large fruits, foods in boxes, and
irregularly shaped foods must be irradiated using x-rays or gamma rays
from nuclear materials.
·    Countries that lack a cheap and reliable source of electricity for
e-beams use nuclear materials. Opening U.S. markets to irradiated food
encourages the spread of nuclear irradiation worldwide for export
crops.

Irradiation using radioactive materials is an environmental hazard.
·    Nuclear irradiation facilities have already contaminated the
environment. For example, in the state of Georgia in 1988, radioactive
water escaped from an irradiation facility. The taxpayers were stuck
with $47 million in cleanup costs. Radioactivity was tracked into cars
and homes. In Hawaii in 1967 and New Jersey in 1982, radioactive water
was flushed into the public sewer system. Numerous worker exposures
have occurred in food irradiation facilities worldwide.

Irradiation doesn't provide clean food.
·    Because irradiation doesn't sterilize (kill all the bacteria in a
food), the ones that survive are by definition radiation-resistant.
These bacteria will multiply and eventually work their way back to the
'animal factories'. Eventually, the bacteria that contaminate the meat
will no longer be killed by currently approved doses of irradiation.
The technology will no longer be usable, while stronger bacteria
contaminate our food supply.
·    Irradiation doesn't kill all the bacteria in a food. In a few hours
at room temperature, the bacteria remaining in meat or poultry after
irradiation can multiply to the level existing before irradiation.
·    Some bacteria, like the one that causes botulism, as well as
viruses and prions (which are believed to cause Mad Cow Disease) are
not killed by current doses of irradiation or by doses that leave the
food palatable.

Irradiation does nothing to change the way food is grown and produced.
·    Irradiated foods can have longer shelf lives than nonirradiated
foods, which means they can be shipped further while appearing 'fresh.'
Food grown by giant farms far away may last longer than nonirradiated,
locally grown food, even if it is inferior in nutrition and taste.
Thus, irradiation encourages centralization and hurts small farmers.
·    The use of pesticides, antibiotics, hormones and other
agrochemicals, as well as pollution and energy use, are not affected.
Irradiation is applied by the packer after harvest or slaughter.
·    Free-market economists say irradiation is 'efficient': it provides
the cheapest possible food for the least possible risk. But these
economists are not considering the impaired nutritional quality of the
food, the environmental effects of large-scale corporate farming, the
social costs of centralization of agriculture and loss of family farms,
the potential long-term damage to human health, and the possibility of
irradiation-resistant super-bacteria. All of these developments should
be (but are not) considered when regulators and public health officials
evaluate the benefits of food irradiation.

Brought to you by: Organic Consumers
Association    <http://www.organicconsumers.org/irradlink.html>
Office: 6114 Highway 61, Little Marais, MN 55614 (218) 226-4164, Fax:
(218)  226-4157.
OCA contact: danila@purefood.org
Patricia  Heil - 14 Jan 2006 23:39 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Chris

In 1936 the US Senate commissioned a study on the Dust Bowl and found that
if there aren't enough nutrients in the soil for the plants the result is
not that they produce food with lower nutrients.  The result is that the
plants don't grow.

Haven't you ever heard of fertilizer?
cguttman - 27 Jan 2006 07:09 GMT
Hi Patricia,

why do the same kinds of food have a variable
amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a
variable amount of selenium, I have seen numbers ranging from 5% RDI to
120% RDI per brazil nut.

cheers, Chris

Patricia Heil wrote:

>>Hello,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Haven't you ever heard of fertilizer?
Enrico C - 27 Jan 2006 09:15 GMT
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:09:03 +1100, cguttman wrote in
<news:43d9c715$0$9370$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet :

> brazil nuts seem to have a
> variable amount of selenium,

A result of the soil where they are grown?

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet

Signature

Enrico C

"l'amor che move il sole e l'altre stelle"

Neryl Chyphes - 27 Jan 2006 10:06 GMT
> Hi Patricia,
>
> why do the same kinds of food have a variable
> amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a
> variable amount of selenium, I have seen numbers ranging from 5% RDI to
> 120% RDI per brazil nut.

I have eaten a lot Brazil Nuts in Australia, but guess what? They weren't
grown there!

Chypho...
TC - 27 Jan 2006 15:07 GMT
> Hi Patricia,
>
> why do the same kinds of food have a variable
> amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a
> variable amount of selenium, I have seen numbers ranging from 5% RDI to
> 120% RDI per brazil nut.

Different soils contain different levels of selenium. Some depleted
soils occur naturally, others are depleted by poor farming practices.
And there are also problems with how they are tested for these
micro-nutrients. Some companies just take the values determined by govt
agencies and apply it to their product. Some may actually test a few
batches themsleves. Who the heck knows how each company does it? I am
always sceptical to some degree about how accurate these food nutrient
valuations on the packages.

TC
Enrico C - 27 Jan 2006 15:42 GMT
On 27 Jan 2006 07:07:16 -0800, TC wrote in
<news:1138374436.949560.134080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet :

> Some companies just take the values determined by govt
> agencies and apply it to their product.

Usually you can easily spot that, 'cause all the values on that
product are identical to the official ones, and that is quite odd,
isn't it? ;-)

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet

Signature

Enrico C

* cut the ending "cut-togli.invalid" string when replying by email *

Doug Freyburger - 27 Jan 2006 20:29 GMT
> > why do the same kinds of food have a variable
> > amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Different soils contain different levels of selenium. Some depleted
> soils occur naturally, others are depleted by poor farming practices.

That's why supplements are recommended so often I think.
Supplements are for micronutrients that should be in the
farmed foods we eat but you're never sure how depleted the
soil was, how much the plant was bred for production not
vitamin content, how early the crop was harvested.  With
top notch produce supplements shouldn't be needed but
that meaning of top notch requires carefull testing.  So it's
a belt-and-suspenders situation maybe getting vitamins
and trace minerals from plants, definitely getting them from
tablets, definitely absorbing them from plants, maybe
absorbing them from tablets.

> And there are also problems with how they are tested for these
> micro-nutrients. Some companies just take the values determined by govt
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> TC
TC - 27 Jan 2006 20:50 GMT
> > > why do the same kinds of food have a variable
> > > amount of certain nutrients? For example, brazil nuts seem to have a
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> >
> > TC

Most cattle farmers add selenium to their grain feed because it is
lacking in the grain they grow. Why it isn't higher on our radar
screens for humans food, who knows?

TC
cguttman - 27 Jan 2006 21:22 GMT
Thanks folks - this was helpful.

So, would anyone say in general that people crave more food, if it has
less vitamins and minerals? For example, does eating oats of brand A
that contains less vitamins then oats of brand B result in eating more
oats of brand A (provided that the vitamin need of ones body is not met
yet).

Chris

> Most cattle farmers add selenium to their grain feed because it is
> lacking in the grain they grow. Why it isn't higher on our radar
> screens for humans food, who knows?
>
> TC
TC - 27 Jan 2006 21:28 GMT
I doubt it. Fresh oats will be chock full of vitamins, but if it sits
for too long or is exposed to too much heat in storage over time, much
of its water soluble vitamins will degrade and disappear, but its
ability to satiate probably will not change. You will not experience
any craving per se.

Should you eat vitamin depleted foods over time though, eventually you
will show signs of vitamin deficiency.

But the general concept of craving missing nutrients is not an area
that I've explored in any depth. Good question though.

TC

> Thanks folks - this was helpful.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >
> > TC
cguttman - 27 Jan 2006 21:54 GMT
Yes, it would be intersting to know if nutrient depleted food would
cause cravings for missing nutrient, and it would explain a few phenomena.

For example, people would feel hungry although they have eaten more
calories than is needed by their body. It would also shed light into the
phenomena that "thinner" people are often not as healthy as "fatter"
people. The reason is that thin and big people might eat the same kinds
of food, but if food has less nutrients than thinner people will likely
to have eaten too little nutrients, which in turn makes them ill.

This also means that there is an advantage to be "fatter" - if indeed
most (cheap and junk) food has less nutrients, than fatter people will
at least have eaten enough nutrients needed by a human body. In
contrast, thin people who eat the same food than "fatter" people, but
eat less of it, will probably become sick. With other words, if one eats
less, one has to be more careful about the diet to ensure the
consumption of all vitamins and minerals. This diet would probably
contain a lot top quality food or homemade food.

Chris

> I doubt it. Fresh oats will be chock full of vitamins, but if it sits
> for too long or is exposed to too much heat in storage over time, much
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>>>
>>>TC
Doug Freyburger - 30 Jan 2006 15:49 GMT
> Yes, it would be intersting to know if nutrient depleted food would
> cause cravings for missing nutrient, and it would explain a few phenomena.

The market forces would push foods that have little nutrition
for one thing.  Part of why labelling laws happened is come
companies were doing this I suspect.  Labelling laws work to
keep this trend from dominating.

I've seen people on low fat diets crave greasy foods.  If their
cravings were accurate they'd crave specific sources of the
essential fatty acids they are missing but cravings aren't that
specific.  During Induction I remember the crab cravings
when I started going low carb.  If I hadn't been determined to
follow the directions I might have caved in and returned to
eating high carb.  I don't know if these sorts of cravings
extend to micronutrients, though.  I bet if they do the cravings
aren't specific enough.  And that would cause folks to overeat.
cguttman - 30 Jan 2006 23:19 GMT
So, I received no definite reply to the questions that have been raised
throughout this discussion.

1) Are there any studies about how soils containing different nutrients
alter the nutrient content of the fruits/vegies/nuts/grains?

2) Are there any studies that investigate if low nutrient food causes
people to overeat, because people crave for food until they have
satisfied their nutritional requirements?

If these issues are indeed underexplored, I wonder if there is someone
out there who is about to do research (maybe a PhD) on this topic. If
so, I am very interested to get into this area of science. Send me an
email if you like to collaborate.

cheers, Chris

>>Yes, it would be intersting to know if nutrient depleted food would
>>cause cravings for missing nutrient, and it would explain a few phenomena.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> extend to micronutrients, though.  I bet if they do the cravings
> aren't specific enough.  And that would cause folks to overeat.
Enrico C - 27 Jan 2006 23:49 GMT
On 27 Jan 2006 13:28:56 -0800, TC wrote in
<news:1138397336.746326.82690@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet :

> I doubt it.

So do I.

> Fresh oats will be chock full of vitamins, but if it sits
> for too long or is exposed to too much heat in storage over time,

Or if you cook them, I suppose...

> much
> of its water soluble vitamins will degrade and disappear, but its
> ability to satiate probably will not change. You will not experience
> any craving per se.

Yep! I guess the satiating index of cereals much depends on their
fiber content, not on vitamins.


> Should you eat vitamin depleted foods over time though, eventually you
> will show signs of vitamin deficiency.
>
> But the general concept of craving missing nutrients is not an area
> that I've explored in any depth. Good question though.

Agreed.

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet

Signature

Enrico C

"l'amor che move il sole e l'altre stelle"

Enrico C - 28 Jan 2006 00:37 GMT
On 27 Jan 2006 13:28:56 -0800, TC wrote in
<news:1138397336.746326.82690@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> on
sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet :

> I doubt it.

So do I.

> Fresh oats will be chock full of vitamins, but if it sits
> for too long or is exposed to too much heat in storage over time,

Or if you cook them, I suppose...

> much
> of its water soluble vitamins will degrade and disappear, but its
> ability to satiate probably will not change. You will not experience
> any craving per se.

Yep! I guess the satiating index of cereals greatly depends on their
fiber content, not on vitamins.


> Should you eat vitamin depleted foods over time though, eventually you
> will show signs of vitamin deficiency.
>
> But the general concept of craving missing nutrients is not an area
> that I've explored in any depth. Good question though.

Agreed.

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet

X'Posted to: sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet

Signature

Enrico C

"l'amor che move il sole e l'altre stelle"

Neryl Chyphes - 27 Jan 2006 10:04 GMT
>...
> The people most obese are those from the USA and Australia.

And Germany.

Plenty of skinny people in Australia, too.

In the US, fatness tends to run in families who *live* together. Ie,
shared habits rather than shared genes and shared micronutrient
profiles.

Chypho...
cguttman - 27 Jan 2006 21:31 GMT
>> ...
>> The people most obese are those from the USA and Australia.
>
> And Germany.

According to OECD statistics, 12.8% Germans, and 30.6% Americans are
obese. Of all OECD countries, that makes Germany lieing somewhere in the
middle, pretty far apart from the USA. The highest percentange of obese
people overall can be found in the USA, closely followed by Mexico and
Australia. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bmi30chart.png for a
OECD chart on obesity.

Chris
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 27 Jan 2006 20:48 GMT
Hey, I don't think we can blame nutrients. Per capita caloric intake
for North Americans goes up every year.

People are getting fatter and fatter because they are living in cities,
living sedentary lives, watching the tube or on the computer, and
eating junk.

M.
 
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